I do think that the Nintendo fanboys do have a legitimate point/grudge... I mean comeon, for YEARS you've been ragged on about motion controls, and the same people, after 1 day, turn around and say that motion control is everything and that Nintendo's motion control is inferior?

You gotta be able to understand/feel for them a little bit at least.

I like your reply/different text mechanism...very clever :)

While controller is here to stay and nothing will replace it for hardcore gamers, I feel that Natal will give devs more options when making games. If they want to bypass it completely, they can do that. If they want to make a game have an "auto detect" option...so if you have Natal plugged in, maybe you get an extra bonus game and if not, you keep playing the game with controller. For example, everyone remembers "Test your might" form Mortal komabt 1? Well they could have you play MK8 or whatever and introduce a game like that that appears only if you have Natal plugged in to your system. If they want to do something else like add a "move the puzzle pieces around" game in MGS5 for example...they could do that too. You can use the controller...but if you have natal, you can use your hands. Natal has loads of possibilities for hardcore gaming...but it will never replace the controller, I agree with that.

With Killzone 2 diversion, I meant that sony moton controls seem more like it will have their own separate games that you can play with freinds when you get bored of playing Killzone 2. Kinda like what Wii is doing. MS I think has a chance to make Natal more seemlesy integrated with hardcore games in my opinion. You dont even need to put the controller down. You can just say "Load RPG gun" for example

Anyone who says "Nintendo's motion control is inferior" are not correct.

Until I say a game being played on a PS3 or X360 with motion controls the the Wiimote is superior in all ways

Unfortunately there are legitimate concerns that some people feel with the Wiimote. Its not a one way street where everyone not on board is a hater or a graphics whore.

From what I understand, the Wiimote doesn't register accelleration slowing than 20cm/s so it doesn't do subtle very well. Its tilt functionality and the way it registered movement in say Zack and Wiki was a bit off also in that it registered movement when I intended none and it didn't respond as intended. A button never doesn't respond as intended. Also the Wiimote is not 1:1 on your screen. If you put a laser pointer on the Wiimote you'd see as well and it also doesn't configure properly to a few TV setups being too big or too far away. Also it doesn't like IR interference from bulbs/other IR sources like security systems or even the sun. Also many of the functions of the Wiimote like motion controls especially due to the lack of sensitivity are tiring and can cause injury with long term use.

Had the Wii been a little more powerful, with say 1/3rd or 1/4 the performance of the Xbox 360 it would have seen far more effort by developers whom need more performance than Nintendo does to realise their vision or atleast realise a similar and comparable vision to what can be achieved on the 360/PS3. Surely theres a difference between an obsession with the obsolete and cheap hardware which performs on the low end of the scale compared to modern systems.

I do agree that some "mini/bonus games" are only possible with motion control... but do you really want to play things like the ball game demonstration in E3? That is the exact "gimmicky" thing that I rail against the lazy use of the Sixaxis for. Sure it's extra, and doesn't harm me, but I feel that it doesn't add anything for me, and therefore doesn't do much, if anything, for the "hardcore".

I'm not following... are you trying to say that NATAL motion control can be integrated with hardcore games while PS3/Wii can't? Like I said before, I feel such integration are gimmicky, and that the combination of motion/voice/etc allow a casual gamer to play a hardcore game entirely without a controller, it won't solve the barrier betweeen the two (aside from things such as... you know... ultraviolence). Why can the Wii/PS3 not do that as well? Don't most of the Wii games infact, allow you to play with motion controls AND classic controls? Sure you can argue that the Wii mote is still a controller, but I think that it's a moot point.

Please note that Natal has been announced for 8 days now. One would be ignorant to assume microsoft will entirely make you play ALL games without a controller or peripheral.  Speculative, of course. But its founded on reasonable assumptions.

@Akvod: please change that red so I can read your post.

So, basically every console vs. PC? Seriously people don't talk about "realizing visions" when we all know the major differences in capability between modern PCs and consoles. I mean Crytek had to actually downgrade their engine to put Crysis 2 on consoles. Am I the only one who finds that incredibly sad?

It's not about visions, it's about budgets. Also You really think any motion control has no issues? There are major issues with the Natal's recognition of finite movement right now (anyone who was actually there enjoyed watching the avatar bend the wrong ways at the joints as he tried to manipulate it) and signifficant recognition and time-delay issues.

And yes, Nintendo absolutely strived to combine core and casual controls into one system. And no, that's not what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft is trying to divide audiences. Trying to say "these are your games, and these are your games. Don't play with the kids on the other side at all." You realize the entire point of what Nintendo does is to make games playable by everyone and enjoyable on completely different levels depending on the gamer (see: Mario Kart, Brawl, Pokemon, Galaxy). Microsoft and Sony completely missed the point.

I never intended to mean that everyone was, but there were a good number of them, and they were very vocal and visible. I'm only criticizing those haters and graphics whores, not people like you, because those people said that motion controls were irrelevant, and made a 180 turn since E3.

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As for the rest of your post (which doesn't concern my original post):

I do agree that the Wiimote, being older, isn't as good of a motion controller as Wii+ and potentially the PSmote may be. However, I don't care nor want motion controls, as much as I loved Flower, I didn't really played it like a game, more than an experience. So the potential superiority of NATAL (which I think can't really be completely compared with the Wii mote. I think that the lack of buttons and physical mass is more of a hinderance to someone like me, as much as it can be a blessing to others) and of PSmote is irrelevant to me really. If I'm playing an FPS I don't want motion controls if it's an competitive game (versus a game like Flower which is more like an experience).

Some applications I could see is a horror game, with Wiimote/PSmote (especially after seeing how you can control the camera like a FPS), but that serves for the purpose of immersion (for a genre that depends on immersion) not as an enhancement to controls and gameplay.

That ball game is something I'd like to try for sure...but not play every day :) Maybe if I miss gym I wouldn't mind playing that for 20-30 mins. But yeah, that won't spark a revolution in hardcore gaming for sure. Lets agree that those casual games will be equally done for all 3 consles... I dont think Natal can do the "balls in your face" game any better than wii :)

I think "seemles hardcore gaming integration" is more likely with Natal than the other 2 as it does offer more features.  Wii does offer classic or motion controls in most games these days (not before  tho...no more heroes could sure use em). but it still makes the user put the controller down and either use motion controls  or a controller. Natal for one is a camera, with no extra controller necessary, and companies can make core games with the 360 controller in mind...but add something extra for the Natal users. This extra feature won't involve putting your controller down, picking up the wand or ahything that would piss off the core player. Simple multiple choice answer in a game like Mass effect could be done with natal using your voice...and the core player won't even notice that their "hardcore" gaming ways of using a controller were compromised by Natal.

There is no proof that MS gets it or Sony doesn't get it since there is no real games shown for either.

Also, for MS or Sony really gets it, the games released for Natal or Sony's wand need to be big sellers and help MS or Sony move consoles. MS/Sony can release the best game of all time but to me it would still means they don't get it if such game doesn't sell.