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Forums - General - Is religion/Christianity in jeapardy? This article is crazy.

Personally, I think there should be much stricter enforcement of the rules churches have to follow to retain their church exempt status. I have seen preachers tell their congregation who to vote for. That is a blatant violation of the rules to retain tax exempt status as you cannot promote a political agenda.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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Rath said:
hunter_alien said:
Wow.. thats just wrong. But what can we expect, this world is changing way to fast and IMO in a bad dirrection. Like it or not a religion gives some discipline to a person :|

Then why on earth do Denmark, Sweden and Norway have ridiculously low crime rates and ridiculously high levels of atheism.

If anything the corellation between religion and crime would go in the other direction.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Denmark is actually number 4. Netherlands 9. 

Of course this is reported crimes.



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
hunter_alien said:
Wow.. thats just wrong. But what can we expect, this world is changing way to fast and IMO in a bad dirrection. Like it or not a religion gives some discipline to a person :|

Then why on earth do Denmark, Sweden and Norway have ridiculously low crime rates and ridiculously high levels of atheism.

If anything the corellation between religion and crime would go in the other direction.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Denmark is actually number 4. Netherlands 9. 

Of course this is reported crimes.

Several major problems with those statistics. To quote somebody who posted on that page (and did an excellent job of it in my opinion):

"Comparing international crime statistics must be done with great caution. Statistics compiled by the United Nations are based on surveys that specify that crimes be counted based on each country's legislated definition of what constitute a "crime". Some countries may include misdemeanor offences, where a fine is issued while others may only count imprisionable offences. Also, counting the crime takes place at different places in the law-enforcement process. Consequently, some countries may count every reported breach of the law, while others may only count cases that make it to court, and even then only the most serious of several charges laid. Because there is so much inconsistency in these statistics, they might also be a quality measure of the standard and efficiency of law enforcement and the criminal justice system of a country, rather than having anything to do with actual prevalence of crime."

Thats why countries like NZ are up the top when clearly NZ is not hideously crime ridden.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Murder is less ambigious and more obvious, though I imagine in the more violent countries sometimes unreported/uninvestigated.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
hunter_alien said:
Wow.. thats just wrong. But what can we expect, this world is changing way to fast and IMO in a bad dirrection. Like it or not a religion gives some discipline to a person :|

Then why on earth do Denmark, Sweden and Norway have ridiculously low crime rates and ridiculously high levels of atheism.

If anything the corellation between religion and crime would go in the other direction.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Denmark is actually number 4. Netherlands 9. 

Of course this is reported crimes.

Several major problems with those statistics. To quote somebody who posted on that page (and did an excellent job of it in my opinion):

"Comparing international crime statistics must be done with great caution. Statistics compiled by the United Nations are based on surveys that specify that crimes be counted based on each country's legislated definition of what constitute a "crime". Some countries may include misdemeanor offences, where a fine is issued while others may only count imprisionable offences. Also, counting the crime takes place at different places in the law-enforcement process. Consequently, some countries may count every reported breach of the law, while others may only count cases that make it to court, and even then only the most serious of several charges laid. Because there is so much inconsistency in these statistics, they might also be a quality measure of the standard and efficiency of law enforcement and the criminal justice system of a country, rather than having anything to do with actual prevalence of crime."

Thats why countries like NZ are up the top when clearly NZ is not hideously crime ridden.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Murder is less ambigious and more obvious, though I imagine in the more violent countries sometimes unreported/uninvestigated.

Isn't less illegal in that area compared to others.

You can cherry pick all you want... but in reality there is  no statistical evidence that correlates with religion when it comes to crimes.  Comparing different countries is a bit silly considering the many MANY different factors.

Such factors include population density (real not average), Gini Coefficent, diversity, freedom of speach, effectiveness of police force and belief in justice... etc.

My point simply was that those countries you stated do not infact have ridiculiously low crime rates.  They're crime rates are fairly high outside of violent crime.



Kasz216 said:

Isn't less illegal in that area compared to others.

You can cherry pick all you want... but in reality there is  no statistical evidence that correlates with religion when it comes to crimes.  Comparing different countries is a bit silly considering the many MANY different factors.

Such factors include population density (real not average), Gini Coefficent, diversity, freedom of speach, effectiveness of police force and belief in justice... etc.

My point simply was that those countries you stated do not infact have ridiculiously low crime rates.  They're crime rates are fairly high.

I'd actually argue that the confounding factors in the data you showed were so large that you can't actually claim that the crime rates in those countries are relatively high. If you can find a study that takes into account the confounding factors that I quoted in my last post I'll agree that I was wrong.



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Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Isn't less illegal in that area compared to others.

You can cherry pick all you want... but in reality there is  no statistical evidence that correlates with religion when it comes to crimes.  Comparing different countries is a bit silly considering the many MANY different factors.

Such factors include population density (real not average), Gini Coefficent, diversity, freedom of speach, effectiveness of police force and belief in justice... etc.

My point simply was that those countries you stated do not infact have ridiculiously low crime rates.  They're crime rates are fairly high.

I'd actually argue that the confounding factors in the data you showed were so large that you can't actually claim that the crime rates in those countries are relatively high. If you can find a study that takes into account the confounding factors that I quoted in my last post I'll agree that I was wrong.

Such factors are largely irrelvent as they don't change the actual crime rate.  A bit nitpicky yes.  But factually true and the best data we have to go by.

Additionally the crime rates in these countries are going up.  Like I said... it's highly unlikely this is due to rising atheism... but year over year change within a population where variables change is a much more valid method.

 



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Isn't less illegal in that area compared to others.

You can cherry pick all you want... but in reality there is  no statistical evidence that correlates with religion when it comes to crimes.  Comparing different countries is a bit silly considering the many MANY different factors.

Such factors include population density (real not average), Gini Coefficent, diversity, freedom of speach, effectiveness of police force and belief in justice... etc.

My point simply was that those countries you stated do not infact have ridiculiously low crime rates.  They're crime rates are fairly high.

I'd actually argue that the confounding factors in the data you showed were so large that you can't actually claim that the crime rates in those countries are relatively high. If you can find a study that takes into account the confounding factors that I quoted in my last post I'll agree that I was wrong.

Such factors are largely irrelvent as they don't change the actual crime rate.  A bit nitpicky yes.  But factually true and the best data we have to go by.

Additionally the crime rates in these countries are going up.  Like I said... it's highly unlikely this is due to rising atheism... but year over year change within a population where variables change is a much more valid method.

 

The factors don't change crime rates but they do strongly change the measurment of crime rates. So the data is pretty worthless because it doesn't show with any accuracy the amount of crime in the country.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Isn't less illegal in that area compared to others.

You can cherry pick all you want... but in reality there is  no statistical evidence that correlates with religion when it comes to crimes.  Comparing different countries is a bit silly considering the many MANY different factors.

Such factors include population density (real not average), Gini Coefficent, diversity, freedom of speach, effectiveness of police force and belief in justice... etc.

My point simply was that those countries you stated do not infact have ridiculiously low crime rates.  They're crime rates are fairly high.

I'd actually argue that the confounding factors in the data you showed were so large that you can't actually claim that the crime rates in those countries are relatively high. If you can find a study that takes into account the confounding factors that I quoted in my last post I'll agree that I was wrong.

Such factors are largely irrelvent as they don't change the actual crime rate.  A bit nitpicky yes.  But factually true and the best data we have to go by.

Additionally the crime rates in these countries are going up.  Like I said... it's highly unlikely this is due to rising atheism... but year over year change within a population where variables change is a much more valid method.

 

The factors don't change crime rates but they do strongly change the measurment of crime rates. So the data is pretty worthless because it doesn't show with any accuracy the amount of crime in the country.

It depends really on if  you believe in moral absolutism or not.  If so it's pretty worthless.

If not however it has plenty of merit as what each society deems as a crime and how they report it since they are self reporting.



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:

The factors don't change crime rates but they do strongly change the measurment of crime rates. So the data is pretty worthless because it doesn't show with any accuracy the amount of crime in the country.

It depends really on if  you believe in moral absolutism or not.  If so it's pretty worthless.

If not however it has plenty of merit as what each society deems as a crime and how they report it since they are self reporting.

I don't believe in moral absolutism, however I do believe that in comparing criminality between countries you have to take a stance of at least some moral absolutism, or compare specific crimes. Otherwise you end up comparing very very different things and its all a bit pointless unless you're studying the perception of criminalities between societies rather than actual crime rates.

However if you take murder, robbery, rapes, assaults and muggings and compare them for example (which are considered criminal pretty much everywhere) and compare them you will find that the Scandinavian countries will generally be towards the bottom end of the scale.

Another interesting one to take is the number of people imprisoned per 1000 people. Though of course that also runs into problems, especially in tyranical countries where people are imprisoned for political reasons.



Yay atheism!


I just had to toss that in there. :P



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