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Forums - Gaming - Zero Punction on Bioshock

PlagueOfLocust said:



Edit - In fact, that's garbage. The story was in no way told entirely through cutscenes. Most of the story is learned from the environment, many aspects of which are not explicitly delivered to the player in any other way. The audio tapes and the posters are a major part of this, but even that is not the only way it's delivered. The story is told in more diverse ways, in fact, and has more layers to it than most if not all games before it. (Before this, how many first person shooters delivered their story through more than direct narration or cutscenes? What are we complaining about?) And the "cutscenes" did not feel like mere cutscenes, so much so that I was confused at first when you suggested there even were any in the game. "Interactive cutscene" is a bit of an oxymoron, especially when it feels as smooth as it does here.

Edit - Sorry, not even sure how this got posted again. Meant only to edit.


I could have sworn I said the story is told through cut scenes and audio diaries. No matter what path you choose the audio diaries are still the same, the environment doesn't change, and the cut scenes stay the same. The only thing that changes is you get encouraging words from Tenenbaum, the little sisters aren't afriad of you in the orphanage, and you get a different ending.



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twesterm said:
Lost tears of Kain said:

Choice plays every part in gameplay, not just the story, it contributes to the adam, which in result gives you the ability to change who you are, i agree with plague almost fully with everything he has said

The "lame" interactive cutscences were fantastic i believe, and choice does effect story progression, not as much as they said, but plays a little mroe then i think you believe.

The choices make all the matter, in any game. If choices had no effect, then there would be no reason to include them. The choices will always have a effect, and i believe they had a decent, but not to deep effect, that def effected my gameplay choices and effected my view of the game overall


The thing with the more adam is that it doesn't result in much more adam at all. It's almost like just slightly varying the difficulty setting. One of my buddies actually made it through the game by rescuing one little sister and ignored the rest with little difficulty. I believe I read somewhere that you could still get just about all the plasmids by rescuing the little sisters if you didn't take a few of the health and/or eve upgrades. All it really is is just a difficulty setting and it's not even a big one since you get gifts anyways.

As for the lame interactive cut scenes, that's merely a personal choice. I don't like them a lot. They can be neat if done well, but when you're forced to just stand there behind a pain of glass and watch, stand next to somebody you can't interact with until the scene ends (the guy at the piano), or all enemies stop what they're doing as soon as an audio diary plays they are lame in my book. Like I said, personal choice.

As for no reason to include the choice, there is a huge reason: gimmick. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's actually really smart, but it's only a gimmick. You give the player the feeling that they are controlling their actions (which fits well with the story) when really it's all just smoke and mirrors.

-edit-
And just to elaborate how much  the extra adam really doesn't matter, how many times did you find yourself hoarding adam or just buying things because you had the extra adam?  I know I didn't need any more than three plasmids at any given time and having a lot of tonics were useful but it wouldn't have bothered me to go without most of them.  The choice really is just smoke and mirrors.


"Need" and "want", "could use" or "would really like" are two distinct things. You could make it through the game with no Adam if you're willing... this undermines the concept for you? The CHOICE to do such a thing highlights the fact that it is, indeed, a choice that affects the game. You sure as hell won't get the same experience with no Adam as someone who has it does.

And the word "gimmick" is just a way of adding negative connotation to what you could just as easily refer to an interesting and unique element of the game. It's not a gimmick when it's the core concept of the design.



"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later."   -C.S. Lewis

"We all make choices... but in the end, our choices... make us."   -Andrew Ryan, Bioshock

Prediction: Wii passes 360 in US between July - September 2008. (Wii supply will be the issue to watch, and barring any freak incidents between now and then as well.) - 6/5/08; Wow, came true even earlier. Wii is a monster.

twesterm said:
Lost tears of Kain said:
twesterm said:
 

The choice doesn't affect gameplay in any way at all other than a few gifts or more adam. Other than that, the game plays exactly the same whether you decide it's fun to kill little girls or save them. As far as gameplay goes that's the exact opposite of the part I have highlighted. Choice plays no part in all in gameplay.

As far the story goes, the story may be about choice but the choices you make plays almost no part in the overall story. Almost the entire story is told through lame interactive cut scenes (personally, I'm not a huge fan of those) and audio diaries with the small part that changes due to choice is from comments from the little sisters that affect nothing and the ending cut scene. That's really it. Once again, choice doesn't actually play a huge part in the game as far as story progression goes.

I get what the game is trying to say and don't me wrong, I dug the game, but just like the reviewer said, it's one extreme or the other, no middle ground, and those choices have no real effect on the game so the choices just don't matter.


Choice plays every part in gameplay, not just the story, it contributes to the adam, which in result gives you the ability to change who you are, i agree with plague almost fully with everything he has said

The "lame" interactive cutscences were fantastic i believe, and choice does effect story progression, not as much as they said, but plays a little mroe then i think you believe.

The choices make all the matter, in any game. If choices had no effect, then there would be no reason to include them. The choices will always have a effect, and i believe they had a decent, but not to deep effect, that def effected my gameplay choices and effected my view of the game overall


The thing with the more adam is that it doesn't result in much more adam at all. It's almost like just slightly varying the difficulty setting. One of my buddies actually made it through the game by rescuing one little sister and ignored the rest with little difficulty. I believe I read somewhere that you could still get just about all the plasmids by rescuing the little sisters if you didn't take a few of the health and/or eve upgrades. All it really is is just a difficulty setting and it's not even a big one since you get gifts anyways.

As for the lame interactive cut scenes, that's merely a personal choice. I don't like them a lot. They can be neat if done well, but when you're forced to just stand there behind a pain of glass and watch, stand next to somebody you can't interact with until the scene ends (the guy at the piano), or all enemies stop what they're doing as soon as an audio diary plays they are lame in my book. Like I said, personal choice.

As for no reason to include the choice, there is a huge reason: gimmick. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's actually really smart, but it's only a gimmick. You give the player the feeling that they are controlling their actions (which fits well with the story) when really it's all just smoke and mirrors.

-edit-
And just to elaborate how much  the extra adam really doesn't matter, how many times did you find yourself hoarding adam or just buying things because you had the extra adam?  I know I didn't need any more than three plasmids at any given time and having a lot of tonics were useful but it wouldn't have bothered me to go without most of them.  The choice really is just smoke and mirrors.


Cutscenes are opinions i agree (i killed the piano guy right when i saw him didnt make me stop and wait). I blew him up with the frag launcher, didnt know i was supposed to take a picture, so i took one of his burnt body..... -_-

True, but you also have to rely on those gifts to get close to enough atom, if you want something that costs 150 now then you should harvest and get the full amount, if not you have to save two little ones, and i do believe the choices effect other things then adam. In the beg of the game, i was desperate for atom to upgrade as much as possible, very late in the game i did have extra, but thats because i left no little sister unsaved O.o

Its not a gimmick, and you know you had no real choices in the game by the way the story unfolds. What happens in you know whos office (btw the cutscene was fantastic i still can picture it in my mind) says that you know who had no choices, but to go through with it. So the game itself, the choice option was  a gimick and they explained that by the plot. The choices did effect the game, if i want this ending ill go with that. I dont believe its a true gimick. The plot itself explains you had no choices, and it does this well, at least no choice up to that point except the choices of the little sister.

It is a gimmick in the fact it doesnt really change things, except for ending and a few other things, and yes i agree. But none the less its choices which i think make the game better and in the end really do effect how you feel.



                 With regard to Call of Duty 4 having an ultra short single player campaign, I guess it may well have been due to the size limitations of DVD on the XBox 360, one of various limitations multi-platform game designers will have to take into consideration-Mike B   

Proud supporter of all 3 console companys

Proud owner of 360wii and DS/psp              

Game trailers-Halo 3 only dissapointed the people who wanted to be dissapointed.

Bet with Harvey Birdman that Lost Odyssey will sell more then Blue dragon did.
PlagueOfLocust said:
twesterm said:
Lost tears of Kain said:

Choice plays every part in gameplay, not just the story, it contributes to the adam, which in result gives you the ability to change who you are, i agree with plague almost fully with everything he has said

The "lame" interactive cutscences were fantastic i believe, and choice does effect story progression, not as much as they said, but plays a little mroe then i think you believe.

The choices make all the matter, in any game. If choices had no effect, then there would be no reason to include them. The choices will always have a effect, and i believe they had a decent, but not to deep effect, that def effected my gameplay choices and effected my view of the game overall


The thing with the more adam is that it doesn't result in much more adam at all. It's almost like just slightly varying the difficulty setting. One of my buddies actually made it through the game by rescuing one little sister and ignored the rest with little difficulty. I believe I read somewhere that you could still get just about all the plasmids by rescuing the little sisters if you didn't take a few of the health and/or eve upgrades. All it really is is just a difficulty setting and it's not even a big one since you get gifts anyways.

As for the lame interactive cut scenes, that's merely a personal choice. I don't like them a lot. They can be neat if done well, but when you're forced to just stand there behind a pain of glass and watch, stand next to somebody you can't interact with until the scene ends (the guy at the piano), or all enemies stop what they're doing as soon as an audio diary plays they are lame in my book. Like I said, personal choice.

As for no reason to include the choice, there is a huge reason: gimmick. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's actually really smart, but it's only a gimmick. You give the player the feeling that they are controlling their actions (which fits well with the story) when really it's all just smoke and mirrors.

-edit-
And just to elaborate how much the extra adam really doesn't matter, how many times did you find yourself hoarding adam or just buying things because you had the extra adam? I know I didn't need any more than three plasmids at any given time and having a lot of tonics were useful but it wouldn't have bothered me to go without most of them. The choice really is just smoke and mirrors.


"Need" and "want", "could use" or "would really like" are two distinct things. You could make it through the game with no Adam if you're willing... this undermines the concept for you? The CHOICE to do such a thing highlights the fact that it is, indeed, a choice that affects the game. You sure as hell won't get the same experience with no Adam as someone who has it does.

And the word "gimmick" is just a way of adding negative connotation to what you could just as easily refer to an interesting and unique element of the game. It's not a gimmick when it's the core concept of the design.


 First off, gimmicks are often the cornerstone of design.  I really don't know why you think it's negative or why you would think it doesn't have anything to do with design.  The fact that we're having this conversation means they did a great job of disguising the "choice" of this game.  Like I said, smoke and mirrors.

As for the need or want of Adam, that's like playing FFXII and just doing licenses differently to play characters differently.  Yes, it affects things slightly, but it does nothing to change the game.   I could go through the game getting only bare essential licenses or I could get everything but it does nothing to affect the flow, base gameplay, or story of the game.  The same goes with the adam for the most part.  I can harvest every little sister or just rescue one and leave the rest alone and the only thing that will really change is the ending cut scene.  I may feel like that choice affected everything in the game, but it doesn't and that's the genius behind this game.



twesterm said:
PlagueOfLocust said:
twesterm said:
Lost tears of Kain said:

Choice plays every part in gameplay, not just the story, it contributes to the adam, which in result gives you the ability to change who you are, i agree with plague almost fully with everything he has said

The "lame" interactive cutscences were fantastic i believe, and choice does effect story progression, not as much as they said, but plays a little mroe then i think you believe.

The choices make all the matter, in any game. If choices had no effect, then there would be no reason to include them. The choices will always have a effect, and i believe they had a decent, but not to deep effect, that def effected my gameplay choices and effected my view of the game overall


The thing with the more adam is that it doesn't result in much more adam at all. It's almost like just slightly varying the difficulty setting. One of my buddies actually made it through the game by rescuing one little sister and ignored the rest with little difficulty. I believe I read somewhere that you could still get just about all the plasmids by rescuing the little sisters if you didn't take a few of the health and/or eve upgrades. All it really is is just a difficulty setting and it's not even a big one since you get gifts anyways.

As for the lame interactive cut scenes, that's merely a personal choice. I don't like them a lot. They can be neat if done well, but when you're forced to just stand there behind a pain of glass and watch, stand next to somebody you can't interact with until the scene ends (the guy at the piano), or all enemies stop what they're doing as soon as an audio diary plays they are lame in my book. Like I said, personal choice.

As for no reason to include the choice, there is a huge reason: gimmick. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's actually really smart, but it's only a gimmick. You give the player the feeling that they are controlling their actions (which fits well with the story) when really it's all just smoke and mirrors.

-edit-
And just to elaborate how much the extra adam really doesn't matter, how many times did you find yourself hoarding adam or just buying things because you had the extra adam? I know I didn't need any more than three plasmids at any given time and having a lot of tonics were useful but it wouldn't have bothered me to go without most of them. The choice really is just smoke and mirrors.


"Need" and "want", "could use" or "would really like" are two distinct things. You could make it through the game with no Adam if you're willing... this undermines the concept for you? The CHOICE to do such a thing highlights the fact that it is, indeed, a choice that affects the game. You sure as hell won't get the same experience with no Adam as someone who has it does.

And the word "gimmick" is just a way of adding negative connotation to what you could just as easily refer to an interesting and unique element of the game. It's not a gimmick when it's the core concept of the design.


 First off, gimmicks are often the cornerstone of design.  I really don't know why you think it's negative or why you would think it doesn't have anything to do with design.  The fact that we're having this conversation means they did a great job of disguising the "choice" of this game.  Like I said, smoke and mirrors.

As for the need or want of Adam, that's like playing FFXII and just doing licenses differently to play characters differently.  Yes, it affects things slightly, but it does nothing to change the game.   I could go through the game getting only bare essential licenses or I could get everything but it does nothing to affect the flow, base gameplay, or story of the game.  The same goes with the adam for the most part.  I can harvest every little sister or just rescue one and leave the rest alone and the only thing that will really change is the ending cut scene.  I may feel like that choice affected everything in the game, but it doesn't and that's the genius behind this game.


I dont think it affected everything in the game, i never said that at least, it affected the outcome of the game, and affected things in the game as well.



                 With regard to Call of Duty 4 having an ultra short single player campaign, I guess it may well have been due to the size limitations of DVD on the XBox 360, one of various limitations multi-platform game designers will have to take into consideration-Mike B   

Proud supporter of all 3 console companys

Proud owner of 360wii and DS/psp              

Game trailers-Halo 3 only dissapointed the people who wanted to be dissapointed.

Bet with Harvey Birdman that Lost Odyssey will sell more then Blue dragon did.
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Lost tears of Kain said:
 

Cutscenes are opinions i agree (i killed the piano guy right when i saw him didnt make me stop and wait). I blew him up with the frag launcher, didnt know i was supposed to take a picture, so i took one of his burnt body..... -_-



 I know I tried to take a picture of that guy while he was alive and it wouldn't let me (or just didn't give me a score I guess) and I thought I tried to whack him with my wrench it didn't do anything.  Maybe I'm just thinking of another part.  I know at some part you could run up to someone and do nothing to them because I was wondering if they were going to do the same thing with Cohen...which they didn't.  :-p 



No no no, you don't understand PoL. Morality shouldn't be some cut and dry "Oooh I can kill a little girl and become stronger or not" situation. I want to see a game with complex morals. Where what's good or bad may not be so clear after all. Until near the release of the game, I thought Bioshock was offering this. Then they said that it's not their fault that they are f'd up in the head. I don't want games that end in black or white. That's not life. There isn't just good or bad.

Every action should have good and bad effects. Bioshock offers nothing new in the morality department. A solid 5 or 6 games before it had similar choices. In KOTOR for example you could sell a woman to slavery or pay off her debt. However, in KOTOR there was at least some degree of middle ground as you could ignore their plight entirely and go on with your lives. KOTOR still had the 2 ending option: all sunshine and daisies or all evil and murderous. However, at least it was doing something new.

A game being brought to the attention of the mainstream is not innovation. I can't believe you even suggested it is...

Now, on to your arguments specifically, which I didn't answer last time because they were pretty ridiculous.

They don't feel the same at all; I played both and I wasn't thinking of SS2 at all as I was playing. The world was so convincingly unique, and the combat so much sharper than SS2, and the RPG elements so much more secondary than in SS2...

I already said the setting was different. Your right, there were less RPG elements. This made it a much more shallow game than System Shock 2, making it a shooter with hardly any RPG elements at all. I thought this was a step down, not something to brag about.

Many of the design principles weren't even the same between both games. What similarities were there? Let's list them: 1. "Shock" in the title. Wow. 2. Story made deeper via audio logs and posters. Uh oh, that's been done twice before in the history of games... that's definitely a stale convention.

That's been done a lot actually. See: Metroid series, KOTOR, System Shock, etc. There is nothing unqiue about it. It's not even that it's necessarily stale, but it has been handled better in other games as well.

3. Er... they're both shooters with RPG elements? Yeah, but said combat/RPG systems are completely unique and don't feel the same at all, so even that point is moot. 4. Both games contain vending machines and other stations... to support the RPG elements. Can anyone see a way around that one? 5. Sorry, I ran out. 6. Seriously... All out.

Yeah, let's just skip over all these facts: They both use an almost identical ability system. PSI powers = Plasmids. Hell, half of them even overlapped! Projected Pyrokenesis = Incinerate.

The enemies are practically identical. Thug Splicers = Hybrids. Ledhead Splicers = Hybrids with guns. Spider Splicers = Arachnids. Houdini Splicers = Monkeys. Sadly, System Shock 2 actually has more enemy variety than it's modern day clone. As it also has Cyborg Midwives, Worms, Swarms, Cyborg Assassins, and Rumblers. The only Bioshock enemy that isn't a direct clone of a System Shock enemy is the Nitro Splicers, who are boring as fuck anyway.

What else? Oh yeah, the wrench as a primary weapon, hacking, plot delivery, adventure style. By that I mean it moves on a room by room basis, with a lot of linearity and side tracking. Hell, the only actual difference between Bioshock and System Shock 2 is that Bioshock dumbed down the System Shock 2 formula by removing a lot of the RPG elements and making the game pathetically easy. Even without Vita Chambers it doesn't present much of a challenge.

ADAM is identical to Cyber, and both fuel their respective identical super powers. The way you acquire them is different... OMG I found a difference!!! What do I win?

As you yourself said both contain vending machines and a nearly identical style of save stations. Again though Bioshock dumbs it down. The save stations are now free, they are much more comon, and when you revive your enemies retain the damage they took in your first failed attempt.

If you couldn't find the overwhelming overlaps between these games then you have not played System Shock 2, or maybe it's just been so long that you don't remember it. I don't know, but there is very little original about Bioshock. What I don't understand is how this game is a 10 by any scale. Sure, it's very fun, and it's a great game, but it's filled with bugs, it's almost an exact replica of an 8 year old title, and it's so easy a toddler could beat it. Even without the vita chambers it's way on the easy side. With the vita chambers it's challenge consists of "look at me shoot stuff," which basically defeats the whole purpose of making this a deep shooter, and brings it down to the level of simplistic games like Halo.



naznatips said:

 With the vita chambers it's challenge consists of "look at me shoot stuff," which basically defeats the whole purpose of making this a deep shooter, and brings it down to the level of simplistic games like Halo.


That was my thoughts exactly.



twesterm said:
Lost tears of Kain said:
 

Cutscenes are opinions i agree (i killed the piano guy right when i saw him didnt make me stop and wait). I blew him up with the frag launcher, didnt know i was supposed to take a picture, so i took one of his burnt body..... -_-



 I know I tried to take a picture of that guy while he was alive and it wouldn't let me (or just didn't give me a score I guess) and I thought I tried to whack him with my wrench it didn't do anything.  Maybe I'm just thinking of another part.  I know at some part you could run up to someone and do nothing to them because I was wondering if they were going to do the same thing with Cohen...which they didn't.  :-p 

Hmm i  wonder, i didnt know we were supposed to take one when he was dead so it all worked out O.O and yea as long as you still have your weapon out and enemy is there you can still kill them in cutscenes unless they are supposed to be one step ahead of you (last lvl)

BTW there is one glitch i knowticed in the game, i wtf pwned cohen in the fort, for the danm things he made me do. He pissed me off when he sent 50 lackys at me, so he had his back turned at me, and i just "whistle" blew his head of with a shotgun O.O but later i went into his appartment and he was alive! he shouted at me "IM SANDER FUCKING COHEN" O.o

 



                 With regard to Call of Duty 4 having an ultra short single player campaign, I guess it may well have been due to the size limitations of DVD on the XBox 360, one of various limitations multi-platform game designers will have to take into consideration-Mike B   

Proud supporter of all 3 console companys

Proud owner of 360wii and DS/psp              

Game trailers-Halo 3 only dissapointed the people who wanted to be dissapointed.

Bet with Harvey Birdman that Lost Odyssey will sell more then Blue dragon did.
naznatips said:

No no no, you don't understand PoL. Morality shouldn't be some cut and dry "Oooh I can kill a little girl and become stronger or not" situation. I want to see a game with complex morals. Where what's good or bad may not be so clear after all. Until near the release of the game, I thought Bioshock was offering this. Then they said that it's not their fault that they are f'd up in the head. I don't want games that end in black or white. That's not life. There isn't just good or bad.

Every action should have good and bad effects. Bioshock offers nothing new in the morality department. A solid 5 or 6 games before it had similar choices. In KOTOR for example you could sell a woman to slavery or pay off her debt. However, in KOTOR there was at least some degree of middle ground as you could ignore their plight entirely and go on with your lives. KOTOR still had the 2 ending option: all sunshine and daisies or all evil and murderous. However, at least it was doing something new.

A game being brought to the attention of the mainstream is not innovation. I can't believe you even suggested it is...

Now, on to your arguments specifically, which I didn't answer last time because they were pretty ridiculous.

They don't feel the same at all; I played both and I wasn't thinking of SS2 at all as I was playing. The world was so convincingly unique, and the combat so much sharper than SS2, and the RPG elements so much more secondary than in SS2...

I already said the setting was different. Your right, there were less RPG elements. This made it a much more shallow game than System Shock 2, making it a shooter with hardly any RPG elements at all. I thought this was a step down, not something to brag about.

Many of the design principles weren't even the same between both games. What similarities were there? Let's list them: 1. "Shock" in the title. Wow. 2. Story made deeper via audio logs and posters. Uh oh, that's been done twice before in the history of games... that's definitely a stale convention.

That's been done a lot actually. See: Metroid series, KOTOR, System Shock, etc. There is nothing unqiue about it. It's not even that it's necessarily stale, but it has been handled better in other games as well.

3. Er... they're both shooters with RPG elements? Yeah, but said combat/RPG systems are completely unique and don't feel the same at all, so even that point is moot. 4. Both games contain vending machines and other stations... to support the RPG elements. Can anyone see a way around that one? 5. Sorry, I ran out. 6. Seriously... All out.

Yeah, let's just skip over all these facts: They both use an almost identical ability system. PSI powers = Plasmids. Hell, half of them even overlapped! Projected Pyrokenesis = Incinerate.

The enemies are practically identical. Thug Splicers = Hybrids. Ledhead Splicers = Hybrids with guns. Spider Splicers = Arachnids. Houdini Splicers = Monkeys. Sadly, System Shock 2 actually has more enemy variety than it's modern day clone. As it also has Cyborg Midwives, Worms, Swarms, Cyborg Assassins, and Rumblers. The only Bioshock enemy that isn't a direct clone of a System Shock enemy is the Nitro Splicers, who are boring as fuck anyway.

What else? Oh yeah, the wrench as a primary weapon, hacking, plot delivery, adventure style. By that I mean it moves on a room by room basis, with a lot of linearity and side tracking. Hell, the only actual difference between Bioshock and System Shock 2 is that Bioshock dumbed down the System Shock 2 formula by removing a lot of the RPG elements and making the game pathetically easy. Even without Vita Chambers it doesn't present much of a challenge.

ADAM is identical to Cyber, and both fuel their respective identical super powers. The way you acquire them is different... OMG I found a difference!!! What do I win?

As you yourself said both contain vending machines and a nearly identical style of save stations. Again though Bioshock dumbs it down. The save stations are now free, they are much more comon, and when you revive your enemies retain the damage they took in your first failed attempt.

If you couldn't find the overwhelming overlaps between these games then you have not played System Shock 2, or maybe it's just been so long that you don't remember it. I don't know, but there is very little original about Bioshock. What I don't understand is how this game is a 10 by any scale. Sure, it's very fun, and it's a great game, but it's filled with bugs, it's almost an exact replica of an 8 year old title, and it's so easy a toddler could beat it. Even without the vita chambers it's way on the easy side. With the vita chambers it's challenge consists of "look at me shoot stuff," which basically defeats the whole purpose of making this a deep shooter, and brings it down to the level of simplistic games like Halo.

Naznatips, we are almost complete opposites when it comes to what we enjoy, bringing down bioshock and halo just makes me want to cry, and i guess its a matter of opinion. Then you disagree with me on that ff 7 is among the best of the franchise, and i swear i want to send an enrage plasmid across the screen onto your pc/tv and have the big daddy pop out and drill you O.O

Lol in all that, everyone has a difference in opinion, so to help me not want to freeze you and wack you with a wrench, anything you enjoyed in bioshock?

BTW i dont dislike you at all you got solid arguements, but it all comes down to opinion, and there we are complete oposites at some things

 



                 With regard to Call of Duty 4 having an ultra short single player campaign, I guess it may well have been due to the size limitations of DVD on the XBox 360, one of various limitations multi-platform game designers will have to take into consideration-Mike B   

Proud supporter of all 3 console companys

Proud owner of 360wii and DS/psp              

Game trailers-Halo 3 only dissapointed the people who wanted to be dissapointed.

Bet with Harvey Birdman that Lost Odyssey will sell more then Blue dragon did.