Well the part I was referring to was your questioning why others weren't banned. If you understand why they weren't when KZ3 was then I'm not sure why this issue was brought up as we would then see eye to eye on it.

The only reason I disagree with the pictures being "outright" trolling is because of the context of the thread. Context is extremely important. IIRC every post up to that point was pretty much a carbon copy of "Awe shucks I was really hoping the other reviewers were wrong but it seems like this is confirmation". If someone was vigorously defending the game and the pics were posted then yes its trolling but in a thread topic where everybody is pretty much in agreement the game is going to be bad I don't see the issue with it.

As far as 1Up's Madden review again it all has to do with context. In the case of madden I think a lot of Wii owners realize that like the PS3 we got screwed by EA this year. I wouldn't take a slamming of madden Wii as anything but a slam to EA for shoddy work. But in general if your comments aren't directed at a person and aren't mocking someone's viewpoint then there should not be a problem.

Your example is actually a great one because you quoted shams and twisted his words to mean the complete opposite as a direct responce to him. That moves it into the category of trollish, sorry to say. You were mocking shams point to make your own. Personally I would just ignore it unless you had taken it another step, but I can see how people would take exception to it. Posting and saying you feel like it should of been higher because you thought it was better than MP3 would be fine, but once again its all about how you do it.

Edit: To be fair shams post you were responding to was a bit off-topic.  And your post specifically is a particularly tough shade of gray to judge.  Its the first part that changes the entire tone of the post for me.  And thats part of the problem I think is that a lot of this is so subjective that its very hard to find any agreement. 

See I disagree with the bolded part. In my book if you can't come in and make the point civily then you don't really deserve consideration. Just to be clear I am saying a flamer/troll's opinion is not valid. The point they were trying to make may very well of been valid but due to the way they approach it I refuse to give them consideration because to do so is to validate their methods.

On the double standard issue, I have yet to see an example of clear cut double standard. What I have seen is people expressing their opinions get flamed and thats why I was stressing the opinion=/=trolling point. I think Ben and Shams are more inclined to agree with Wii owners but I have not seen an instance where two people were clearly flaming away and only one of them got a ban.

Let me stress this to the absolute maximum just to make sure it is understood. If you are being trolled/flamed/insulted by a Wii fan under no circumstances respond in kind. Allowing him to continue to make an ass of himself only helps solidify your viewpoint and further show that its the Wii fan causing the issue. Then if nothing is done you have a clear cut case and I would gladly back you up on it. Simply do not engage in it. It is really that simple.

See this is where you have to realize there is a conflict on the pictures. I do agree they weren't needed, but the mods have a constant battle they fight between being censors and being good mods and when the vast majority of the thread is ok with the pictures it is very hard for them to say they have to go.

But more than that consider the the fact that a mod is not in every thread all the time constantly hitting refresh. So as a mod if you get into that thread late and you see a few people have posted pictures and a page later everything explodes with the picture posters being flamed. Which action are you going to consider more severe? The posting of a picture or active flaming? The point is its very easy to play monday morning QB but the mods aren't always able to read every post in every thread. Often times they are coming into threads late and checking the last 10 or so posts to make sure all is well. So if you have an issue with a post then report it to make sure a mod sees it and reads it.

 

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Honestly this is a pretty cumbersome debate, and if its all the same to you I would much rather cut it down to the meat of the issue. I will let you set the agenda, so whatever points or issues you feel most important to your argument highlight them and lets cut out some of less important stuff.

 

I went back and looked over the thread with the pics again, didn't read everybodies post but skimmed over for general tone and honestly the jabs were all extremely light. Even KZ3's wasn't his usual barbs. But there is no denying his last comment of the post was flamebait, and only when combined with his history was the ban warranted. Everything up to that point was harmless compared to the stuff that routinely goes unchallenged by all of the mods.

Sqrl said:Well the part I was referring to was your questioning why others weren't banned. If you understand why they weren't when KZ3 was then I'm not sure why this issue was brought up as we would then see eye to eye on it.

What I'm trying to say is that if the pictures were moded before hand, it would not have gotten to a point that a ban was necessary for anyone. Like Benkenobi said, Killzone3 was doing just fine before his Wii fanboy remark. This wouldn't have happen if it wasn't for those pictures. The pictures ended up doing nothing but aggrevate memebrs, as Killzone3's remark was in response to those pictures.

I get what you're saying, but even if true, you still have to take into consideration that the pictures did nothing, and I mean nothing to contribute to the thread. Not were the pictures mindless bashing, they were also on the spamming side, too! I really, really think they should have been taken care of.

I never once mocked Shams. It was him who brought up the Metroid vs Heavenly Sword score, I was replying to his to his response about about the game being a 7 compared to metroids 9. I feel the exact opposite, and that why I posted how I feel about the game scores. It had nothing to do with me trying to show up Shams. Even Benkenobi, a mod, said it was alright for me to think Heavenly Sword was better. If there was a problem with my post, Benkenobi wouldn've did something. It's not like I just came out of the blue and said, "Heavenly Sword owns Metroid!!!.

I think that everyone's opinions should be respected. I don't care what console a person like. There's no reason why someone opinion doesn't deserved to be respected, and although there are some members I don't agree, I still respect their opinions.

I honestly don't understand how you don't see it. Considering that most of the active mods are Nintendo fans, it's only natrual that there will be a highter level of tolerance towards Nintendo fans. Like you said, Shams and Benkenobi are more inclined to agree with other Nintendo fans. However, they're also more inclined not trolling against Sony or MS as seriously as they would as if was Nintendo. This is where the double standard comes from. 

I've never been flamed at all on this site, so this has never been a problem for me. I love the community on this site, and I don't have any problems with Nintendo fans or Sony fans.

I understand that, but if that's the case, Killzone should not have been, as it was those pictures that aggrevated him to the point that he made a very flamish remark. Can you honestly sit back and say those pictures didn't cause any trouble at all?

________________________________________

Another thing I would like to bring up about this subject is:

You said that we PS3 fans are out numbered. This, in my opinion, is not true. This site has plenty of active Playstation fans. The Sony forum is every bit as ative as the Nintendo forum. The problem is the in the mod roster. It isn't balanced enough, and there are very few mods we Playstation fans can count on to keep thing safe. he only mods I feel I can count on are Stof, CK and Ben. With everyone else I get the "why bother feeling."

Well the part I was referring to was your questioning why others weren't banned. If you understand why they weren't when KZ3 was then I'm not sure why this issue was brought up as we would then see eye to eye on it.

What I'm trying to say is that if the pictures were moded before hand, it would not have gotten to a point that a ban was necessary for anyone. Like Benkenobi said, Killzone3 was doing just fine before his Wii fanboy remark. This wouldn't have happen if it wasn't for those pictures. The pictures ended up doing nothing but aggrevate memebrs, as Killzone3's remark was in response to those pictures.

Thats just it though, its all hindsight. If you are a mod and you read through a thread and the pictures get posted and nobody says anything then to edit them out is just censorship. Now after the fact when someone takes issue with it is when its so obviously a problem. Like I have said numerous times I don't agree with the posting of the pics. But I am being honest in telling you that if the same pics were posted on ANY forum about a game that was flopping I would seriously hesitate to get rid of them when by all appearances they are a non-issue. I might PM the person and tell them to be careful because it can be construed as flamebait in the wrong context but I wouldn't edit their message.

KZ3 doesn't get a flame-for-free card just because somebody incited him however. He has to take responsibility for his posts and if he cannot keep his cool then warnings and bans are going to be the norm for him.

The only reason I disagree with the pictures being "outright" trolling is because of the context of the thread. Context is extremely important. IIRC every post up to that point was pretty much a carbon copy of "Awe shucks I was really hoping the other reviewers were wrong but it seems like this is confirmation". If someone was vigorously defending the game and the pics were posted then yes its trolling but in a thread topic where everybody is pretty much in agreement the game is going to be bad I don't see the issue with it.

I get what you're saying, but even if true, you still have to take into consideration that the pictures did nothing, and I mean nothing to contribute to the thread. Not were the pictures mindless bashing, they were also on the spamming side, too! I really, really think they should have been taken care of.

Again I will just say I didn't and don't agree with the posting of the pictures, but at worst they were flamebait at best they were genuine attempts at humor. I am sort of stuck in the middle on this issue because I am strongly opposed to the idea of censoring what people have to say so long as they aren't attacking someone or their ideas and at the same time I do see that these are a form of flamebait if posted in the wrong thread/context. After reading the thread again I think the mood of the thread was very anti-Lair and posting the pics only reaffirmed what everyone was saying.

Hell even KZ3 seemed to agree with the comments and general position of the pictures. What he took exception to was the fact that it was coming from "The Wii fanboys". So to say he was outraged by the pictures is also a bit disingenuous since the real issue for KZ3 probably had more to do with them being the ones posting the pics than the message delivered by them.

Honestly the whole thread up to that point was just harmless. If it were not for KZ3's long long record of flames it would of been a very questionable ban.

Your example is actually a great one because you quoted shams and twisted his words to mean the complete opposite as a direct responce to him. That moves it into the category of trollish, sorry to say. You were mocking shams point to make your own. Personally I would just ignore it unless you had taken it another step, but I can see how people would take exception to it. Posting and saying you feel like it should of been higher because you thought it was better than MP3 would be fine, but once again its all about how you do it.

I never once mocked Shams. It was him who brought up the Metroid vs Heavenly Sword score, I was replying to his to his response about about the game being a 7 compared to metroids 9. I feel the exact opposite, and that why I posted how I feel about the game scores. It had nothing to do with me trying to show up Shams. Even Benkenobi, a mod, said it was alright for me to think Heavenly Sword was better. If there was a problem with my post, Benkenobi wouldn've did something. It's not like I just came out of the blue and said, "Heavenly Sword owns Metroid!!!.

Ok I had a feeling you were going to miss what I was going for here. First let me say you have me on the side of devil's advocate in this issue as I don't think what you did was trolling. I think it was trollish and even then only thinly. As I said before I would not have bothered to respond or deal with it as it was really a nonissue for me, but you asked me to look at it so I have. And in doing so I am giving you my honest opinion about it, in detail.

 

With that said, the issue is not with the MP3 comparison but rather the way you took Shams example and while responding directly to shams feigned agreement before twisting the comment to your point of view. "Yeah I don't get it neither" , this quote is mocking shams right before you get to the point you wanted to make. If you drop that one line the entire tone of your post changes and I see zero issue at all. You can use shams setup to make your point but the feigning of agreement sets a very clear tone of mockery for anyone paying attention. On my first read through the thread I didn't notice it hence my not taking issue with it because I believe its very possible it was unintended.

Just as in life where there is a tone to your voice there is a tone to every post and the way you word, phrase, and lay out your arguments in any discussion will set a tone for the reader. This is why in a flamed up thread everyone seems angry even though there is no yelling and everyone has typed their responces out slowly. You percieve the anger because of the way they have written their posts and words they have chosen. This is precisely why the mod job is difficult, because one person may percieve things completely differently. This is also why I am being hypersensitive when analyzing your comment. Not because I think its horrible flaming but because with so many perceptions possible you have to take the worst case perception for each person as a standard if you want to catch everything. But if the mods take that view then pretty much nobody gets to make posts.

See I disagree with the bolded part. In my book if you can't come in and make the point civily then you don't really deserve consideration. Just to be clear I am saying a flamer/troll's opinion is not valid. The point they were trying to make may very well of been valid but due to the way they approach it I refuse to give them consideration because to do so is to validate their methods.

I think that everyone's opinions should be respected. I don't care what console a person like. There's no reason why someone opinion doesn't deserved to be respected, and although there are some members I don't agree, I still respect their opinions.

The console they like has nothing to do with it for me. If you come in and troll and flame a thread your opinion means nothing to me. I refuse to give any recognition to that way of dealing with an issue. If they want to make a point I am glad to listen to them regardless of their position so long as they can remain civil and back up their point with logic and fact. Thats completely reasonable and its no different than someone choosing not discuss politics with someone who constantly yells and screams in their face when there is a disagreement.

 

I'm sure in life you do your best to avoid interaction with the sorts of people who are constantly jumping down your throat, and the same makes perfect sense to me here. And just like in life I couldn't care less about their opinions because they have never considered mine as anything but something to be rediculed. So I see no reason to consider their opinion as anything but something to be ignored. That is of course unless they decide to change their tone and have a normal conversation.

On the double standard issue, I have yet to see an example of clear cut double standard. What I have seen is people expressing their opinions get flamed and thats why I was stressing the opinion=/=trolling point. I think Ben and Shams are more inclined to agree with Wii owners but I have not seen an instance where two people were clearly flaming away and only one of them got a ban.

I honestly don't understand how you don't see it. Considering that most of the active mods are Nintendo fans, it's only natrual that there will be a highter level of tolerance towards Nintendo fans. Like you said, Shams and Benkenobi are more inclined to agree with other Nintendo fans. However, they're also more inclined not trolling against Sony or MS as seriously as they would as if was Nintendo. This is where the double standard comes from.

 

If I am missing it please, show me a situation where it is as obvious as you are making it out to be. I don't doubt that they are more tolerant towards people with the same viewpoint as them, but I also don't think it prevents them from handing out the warnings and bans when people cross the line.

I have yet to see a circumstance where two people flame and the nintendo fan doesn't get banned/warned but the other guy does. If you have that example please provide it, but otherwise this is speculation.

Let me stress this to the absolute maximum just to make sure it is understood. If you are being trolled/flamed/insulted by a Wii fan under no circumstances respond in kind. Allowing him to continue to make an ass of himself only helps solidify your viewpoint and further show that its the Wii fan causing the issue. Then if nothing is done you have a clear cut case and I would gladly back you up on it. Simply do not engage in it. It is really that simple.

I've never been flamed at all on this site, so this has never been a problem for me. I love the community on this site, and I don't have any problems with Nintendo fans or Sony fans.

This was more of a general statement to everyone. And to be clear, I'm sure I have crossed the flamebait/troll line before. So I am not saying that its super easy to keep yourself in check, but if you do like I do and reread every post before adding it to a thread you will find it far easier to keep your comments civil. I would probably be at 1500 posts if I had posted every post I have written. Sometimes I just decide "Is it worth it to post in this thread or is it just going to cause trouble?". Its a good question to ask yourself before posting.

But more than that consider the the fact that a mod is not in every thread all the time constantly hitting refresh. So as a mod if you get into that thread late and you see a few people have posted pictures and a page later everything explodes with the picture posters being flamed. Which action are you going to consider more severe? The posting of a picture or active flaming? The point is its very easy to play monday morning QB but the mods aren't always able to read every post in every thread. Often times they are coming into threads late and checking the last 10 or so posts to make sure all is well. So if you have an issue with a post then report it to make sure a mod sees it and reads it.

I understand that, but if that's the case, Killzone should not have been, as it was those pictures that aggrevated him to the point that he made a very flamish remark. Can you honestly sit back and say those pictures didn't cause any trouble at all?

I don't think I have once implied the pictures were just fine, in fact I am pretty sure this entire time I have said they were borderline. But once again KZ3 must take resposibility for his post and nothing will or should change that. I'm not sure how you got out of this paragraph that KZ3 should not have been banned. If anything it makes that case even stronger. All KZ3 had to do was report them both and write in the comment box that they were flamebaiting.

Another thing I would like to bring up about this subject is:

You said that we PS3 fans are out numbered. This, in my opinion, is not true. This site has plenty of active Playstation fans. The Sony forum is every bit as ative as the Nintendo forum. The problem is the in the mod roster. It isn't balanced enough, and there are very few mods we Playstation fans can count on to keep thing safe. he only mods I feel I can count on are Stof, CK and Ben. With everyone else I get the "why bother feeling."

Then you should feel very safe indeed as they are three very active mods and its not very often that at least one of them isn't on and patrolling the streets =)

Hus said: gebx said:   Take off you fanboy blinders and look around, every system here as a fair coverage of Mods. Your opinion, reality says other wise. Ok lets make a list of what mod has what console, why not ehh its just the god honest truth. Add to the list i dont know all of them. ioi - wii BenKenobi88 - wii Shams - ??? chmlb - SP3/360/wii DKII - ??? TheSource - Wii Stof - ??? mrstickball - 360   Iam not even goona get in to the double standart on here iam to lazy to type them much.

roadkillers is also a mod, and he's a PS3 owner.

But this is ridiculous. It shouldn't matter what console I own as a meter of my moderating abilities.

I unbanned you last night, and this is one of the first posts you make? How about you just try contributing to normal discussion like everybody else, and we wouldn't have to do this all day.

And the word is "standard." There's no such word as "standart."

EDIT:  And for the record:  ioi and TheSource don't really moderate the forums that much...they post news and obviously ioi runs the site.  I don't think it really matters that they own a Wii console.

*Mr Marc lol's at this thread then gets back to playing video games, far more interesting!*

Anyone else here wanna follow suit?

BenKenobi88 said: Hus said: gebx said:   Take off you fanboy blinders and look around, every system here as a fair coverage of Mods. Your opinion, reality says other wise. Ok lets make a list of what mod has what console, why not ehh its just the god honest truth. Add to the list i dont know all of them. ioi - wii BenKenobi88 - wii Shams - ??? chmlb - SP3/360/wii DKII - ??? TheSource - Wii Stof - ??? mrstickball - 360   Iam not even goona get in to the double standart on here iam to lazy to type them much. roadkillers is also a mod, and he's a PS3 owner. But this is ridiculous. It shouldn't matter what console I own as a meter of my moderating abilities. I unbanned you last night, and this is one of the first posts you make? How about you just try contributing to normal discussion like everybody else, and we wouldn't have to do this all day. And the word is "standard." There's no such word as "standart." EDIT: And for the record: ioi and TheSource don't really moderate the forums that much...they post news and obviously ioi runs the site. I don't think it really matters that they own a Wii console.

Ohh look threats already for NO freaking reason. Well there is a reason, facts do not fit his opinion on this matter. Simple math show alot more wii owner mods, thats just a fact.

See people this is the doublle STANDARD we talk about, its ok for gebx to post false info that there is a "every system here as a fair coverage of Mods" yet i get threats for trying to show the truth.

Is that not a double standard ?

Are people allowed to have opinions Hus? If I recall AIIAII still isn't banned yet "wii fanboys" say whatever they want. Trolling is INSULTING others. Attack people personally is trolling. Saying something different from anybody else is OPINION. Nintendo fans aren't banned because they are civilized and don't insult others. Gballzack was banned for trolling. Blue3 was banned for trolling. People are banned for TROLLING not OPINION.

@BenKenobi88

You really banned yourself?

@Hus

Have you ever used the report button? If not what right have you to claim that the Mods have double standards?

@grandmaster192

How can you defend AllAll when he never has discussed anything else than how biased this site is. Have you seen him argument for anything else? If yes than I would like a link to that thread.

@dtewi

Yes he did...other than that I agree with your post.

@thread

opinion != trolling. What is trolling is hitting a thread with a one liner and leave without answering the thread, or insulting people. That people still drags up the pictures posted in the Lair IGN thread makes me wonder, those post was clearly aimed at the game, first the bomba picture: The game had just got a 4.9 score, clearly a bomb compared to what people thought about that idea. Money in the toilet, the game costed 25 million USD and ends up with a score of 4.9?

The pics was aimed at the game and that review! How was it trolling?

robjoh said: @Hus Have you ever used the report button? If not what right have you to claim that the Mods have double standards?

 

 I have every right because i see them do nothing about trolling way to manny times.