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Forums - Gaming Discussion - 360 CPU and Cell are fairly equal according to Dave Shippy

joeorc on 24 February 2009
Cueil said:
Procrastinato said:
Cueil said:

SPE's are not cores... they are more like the ALUs in the PS2 than they are CPUs... they don't run at the same frequency as the PPC core does much less the rest of the SPEs.  That sentence made sense if you understood what I was talking about.  I'd salute your ignorance, but then again being interested in this type of thing isn't every ones forte and thus I let you off the hook.  The reason I go off like this is because of trying to understand their prefered console they spew out numbers that they hardly can grasp and past shit they find on google to their post to make it seem like they may know what they are talking about.

 

You do realize that any schmuck can look up the BS that you just spewed on wikipedia, and any other source, and you'll look like a fool, right?

If you're serious with your comments... you need some help... or maybe just some reading skills.

 

 

 I don't need to go look at a site that can be edited by anyone.  I've been following the Cell since 2002.  The processor is a monster at many things, but it was never build for gaming as it's primary idea.  The SPE's all send and process data at different rates(fixed rates)... if you go and read up on some programmers talking about the difficulties of dealing with that fact you'd understand.  I'm not trying to discredit the Cell, but people think it's the end all be all and it's not.  It has many flaws that hold it back and Sony's implementation of it in the PS3 was half assed like most of what they did this gen.  And the Cell in the PS3 inly has 6 SPEs for use for games.

but it was never build for gaming as it's primary idea

what ever man

 

if you go and read up on some programmers talking about the difficulties of dealing with that fact you'd understand

which programmer's would that be huh?

 

And the Cell in the PS3 inly has 6 SPEs for use for games.

 

that depend's

that depend's on what you are wanting do do with Each core :

example Warhawk's developer stated this:

Incognito's  talking about using Cell to render geometry:

4. What did you do on this game that you couldn’t do on another platform?

It’s hard to answer this and not sound like a gratuitous SONY sales pitch
Although I would say it’s the sum-total of all of our natural phenomenon in the game. Our clouds, procedural water, atmospheric scattering, terrain, etc. All of this stuff runs in parallel on all 7 SPUs simultaneously every frame – I’m still not sure if the game community is giving enough credit to just how fast the SPUs really are.

-dylan-jobe

once again..your a real funny guy



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

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Procrastinato on 24 February 2009

Heineken sucks. Alot.

Rogue, Deschutes, Sierra Nevada... so many good ales around me I never have to be picky.  Europe has nothing on the Pacific NW, when it comes to ale.

Hoo yeah!  I just threw down the gauntlet for the Euro readers! ;)  I mean... Heineken drinkers!



 

Fishie on 24 February 2009
Procrastinato said:
Fishie said:
Procrastinato said:
Fishie said:

 Not even that.

In 2K7 the games industry in the US passed box office sales.

Thing is that included the price of the hardware and services.

Take those away and it didnt even come close.

 

Now look at it world wide and the entire games industry INCLUDING hardware sales doesnt even come close to worldwide box office revenue(Bollywood thanks you).

 

Actually, the video game market blew DVD sales (not DVD + Box Office.. yet) out of the water last year.  You're at least 0 for 2 now.

Here's an educational link:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6203677.html

 

 

Its one of the most perpetuated lies in existence.

When these outlets talk about box office revenue in the US or worldwide getting beat by videogames they count videogame hardware and compare it to ONLY US OUTPUT.  Basically its HOLLYWOOD AND THATS IT.

Thats why I mentioned Bollywood, count international box office revenue from all movies made worldwide and the entire games industry DOES NOT EVEN COMPARE.

 

Regardles of those things though I first reacted to a post that said games made more money then movies.

And that one is laughable to the extreme.

With movies you first get theatrical releases, then DVD`s, pay per view, cable and network rights, airline and cruiseline rights, merchandising at chain restaurants(McDonalds pays big bucks for something like Wal E) etcetera. All continuing revenue streams games dont get.

The link explicitly states that its talking worldwide revenue.  You're saying they're making it up?  Or... you're trying to lump in a whole load of other industries to change the argument?

 

 

 Yes they are making it up.

They only count box office revenue of Hollywood output.

Look at the anual figures by US studios, add those up and it will be roughly the same as the figure they quote for worldwide box office revenue.

They dont count Bollywood, they dont count output by Japan, China, Thailand etcetera.

Only movies published by Hollywood studios.



heruamon on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
NJ5 said:

@Procastinato: So now most engine programmers are newbs? That's like the "developers are lazy" argument, it completely ignores one of the most important matters of game development - cost. Time equals money, the Cell equals more invested time in engine programming, which equals more money spent.

It's not that developers are lazy or stupid, it's that they have limited time and budget. Sony needs to learn that lesson and make developer-friendly consoles.

 

it's not like that, yes more time does mean more money..but also it mean's you as a developer will not be prepaired for the next trend in Microprocessor's..like the Cell processor..if you look at the way the New processor's from Intel,Ati,Nvidia and Amd, IBM, STI they are all producing

CPU/GPU combo chip's it's learn it now or later ..that's the developer's choice, some are learning it now

 

 Why do you keep talking about stuff you dont understand and stuff like STI(Sony bailed out of the project, look it up so even Sony gave up on CELL)that no longer exists?

 

o'l brother..bailing..huh, look who happen's to hold patent's on the Cell processor, and guess what Sony can just buy chip's off of Toshiba

or build another plant and produce them their selves if Sony wanted too....you act like the Cell is a Failure..god you are dense

-beer is on tap

 

Sony has sold their chip facilities to Toshiba for cheap because they could no longer finance the losses.

Toshiba now holds more patents to CELL then Sony AND is making them for Sony and themselves.

Apart from the PS3 Toshiba is also the only company actually putting CELL in a consumer product because hey they have it so why not use it.

Toshiba and IBM hold all the cards here, Sony has none left. Sony cant demand further development of CELL because they abandoned the project themselves, Sony cant expect economies of scale to lower the price of CELL and is at the mercy of Toshiba since they have no fabrication facilities left nor the money to start any(that entire thing with being in debt several billion dollars and all you know).

 

In short the future of CELL is screwed and so is Sony with regards to CELL.

 

I'm not sure it's screwed, but many where banking on the ps3 dominating the gaming sphere, and driving the adaption of the chip for another functions...and that's not really happening on a mass markeet scale.  PS2 had almost reached 100 milion ( if not more) by the release of 360, so it wasn't pie-in-the-sky by sony, but the console just met too much competition, and it lacked transformational tech to covince consumers to accept the higher price.  With the current losses incurred by Sony, you have to wonder when you'll see the PS$.  Antoehr thing is you're constantly hearing the talk about how developers are JUST now starting to learn to program for the PS3...so looking at the timeline:

- 2010...programmers start to really push the ps3....

- 2011/2012...Nintendo/M$ launch new console....

Won't this put the ps4 is the same position as the ps3 wrt to the next generation?

 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Procrastinato on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
Procrastinato said:

 

Actually, the video game market blew DVD sales (not DVD + Box Office.. yet) out of the water last year.  You're at least 0 for 2 now.

Here's an educational link:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6203677.html

 

 

Its one of the most perpetuated lies in existence.

When these outlets talk about box office revenue in the US or worldwide getting beat by videogames they count videogame hardware and compare it to ONLY US OUTPUT.  Basically its HOLLYWOOD AND THATS IT.

Thats why I mentioned Bollywood, count international box office revenue from all movies made worldwide and the entire games industry DOES NOT EVEN COMPARE.

 

Regardles of those things though I first reacted to a post that said games made more money then movies.

And that one is laughable to the extreme.

With movies you first get theatrical releases, then DVD`s, pay per view, cable and network rights, airline and cruiseline rights, merchandising at chain restaurants(McDonalds pays big bucks for something like Wal E) etcetera. All continuing revenue streams games dont get.

The link explicitly states that its talking worldwide revenue.  You're saying they're making it up?  Or... you're trying to lump in a whole load of other industries to change the argument?

 

 

 Yes they are making it up.

They only count box office revenue of Hollywood output.

Look at the anual figures by US studios, add those up and it will be roughly the same as the figure they quote for worldwide box office revenue.

They dont count Bollywood, they dont count output by Japan, China, Thailand etcetera.

Only movies published by Hollywood studios.

Lol, you are awesome.  I nearly spilled my brew.  The link was news from a worldwide tracking agency, not an American one, but... I bet they don't count pirated DVDs either!  The rats!

 



 

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joeorc on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
NJ5 said:

@Procastinato: So now most engine programmers are newbs? That's like the "developers are lazy" argument, it completely ignores one of the most important matters of game development - cost. Time equals money, the Cell equals more invested time in engine programming, which equals more money spent.

It's not that developers are lazy or stupid, it's that they have limited time and budget. Sony needs to learn that lesson and make developer-friendly consoles.

 

it's not like that, yes more time does mean more money..but also it mean's you as a developer will not be prepaired for the next trend in Microprocessor's..like the Cell processor..if you look at the way the New processor's from Intel,Ati,Nvidia and Amd, IBM, STI they are all producing

CPU/GPU combo chip's it's learn it now or later ..that's the developer's choice, some are learning it now

 

 Why do you keep talking about stuff you dont understand and stuff like STI(Sony bailed out of the project, look it up so even Sony gave up on CELL)that no longer exists?

 

o'l brother..bailing..huh, look who happen's to hold patent's on the Cell processor, and guess what Sony can just buy chip's off of Toshiba

or build another plant and produce them their selves if Sony wanted too....you act like the Cell is a Failure..god you are dense

-beer is on tap

 

Sony has sold their chip facilities to Toshiba for cheap because they could no longer finance the losses.

Toshiba now holds more patents to CELL then Sony AND is making them for Sony and themselves.

Apart from the PS3 Toshiba is also the only company actually putting CELL in a consumer product because hey they have it so why not use it.

Toshiba and IBM hold all the cards here, Sony has none left. Sony cant demand further development of CELL because they abandoned the project themselves, Sony cant expect economies of scale to lower the price of CELL and is at the mercy of Toshiba since they have no fabrication facilities left nor the money to start any(that entire thing with being in debt several billion dollars and all you know).

 

In short the future of CELL is screwed and so is Sony with regards to CELL.

 

40% share's = sony is screwed in reguard's to the Cell

WOW....

link's

o'l you mean this: Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

 

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

 

Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

The deal involves setting up a JV majority owned by Toshiba (60%), with 20% stakes each by Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., to take over 300mm lines at Sony Semiconductor Kyushu Corp.'s Fab 2 at the Nagasaki Technology Center, by the end of the current fiscal year (March 2008). The as-yet-unnamed JV, capitalized at 100M yen (US ~$857K) with top execs appointed by both sides (chairman/ and CEO by Toshiba, president and COO by Sony), will make chips for the Playstation 3 system using 300mm/65nm and eventually 45nm mass production.

As part of the deal, Toshiba also will take over assets from another Toshiba-Sony JV, Oita TS Semiconductor Corp., formed in 1999 to make chips for the Playstation 2 system, and slated to expire at the end of this fiscal year. Toshiba also will purchase Sony's manufacturing equipment for making its RSX image-processing chips for the PS3, made in the firm's Oita plant, for about 30B yen (~$257M), reports the Nikkei daily.

http://www.solid-state.com/articles/article_display.html?id=309463

and if that's not enough...

For Toshiba (other-otc: TOSBF - news - people ), buying the Cell line would give it a huge upgrade in the system chip business, where it is lagging far behind Intel (nasdaq: INTC - news - people ) and Samsung (other-otc: SSNLF - news - people ), with the anchor of having Sony as a reliable buyer.

Both companies said they would jointly advance the Cell chips to the next stage of technology: Toshiba was reported by Nikkei Business Daily as intending to roll out a 45-nanometer version of the Cell in two years and employinh the cutting-edge chips in personal computers and flat-panel televisions.

Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ) shares swooned after initial press rumors of the sale a month ago, but on Thursday afternoon, they were up 30 yen, or 0.55%, at 5,430 yen ($46.57).

The sale allows Sony to pass on the heavy cost of microprocessor development to Toshiba, Japan’s largest microchip maker. It could possibly lower Sony's procurement costs for Cell chips if Toshiba can reap production efficiencies from commercializing the chips in a broader range of applications. Sony will also be able to invest the proceeds of the sale to bolster its world-leading position in image-processing chips for its digital cameras and cell phones.



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

Fishie on 24 February 2009
joeorc said:
Cueil said:
Procrastinato said:
Cueil said:

SPE's are not cores... they are more like the ALUs in the PS2 than they are CPUs... they don't run at the same frequency as the PPC core does much less the rest of the SPEs.  That sentence made sense if you understood what I was talking about.  I'd salute your ignorance, but then again being interested in this type of thing isn't every ones forte and thus I let you off the hook.  The reason I go off like this is because of trying to understand their prefered console they spew out numbers that they hardly can grasp and past shit they find on google to their post to make it seem like they may know what they are talking about.

 

You do realize that any schmuck can look up the BS that you just spewed on wikipedia, and any other source, and you'll look like a fool, right?

If you're serious with your comments... you need some help... or maybe just some reading skills.

 

 

 I don't need to go look at a site that can be edited by anyone.  I've been following the Cell since 2002.  The processor is a monster at many things, but it was never build for gaming as it's primary idea.  The SPE's all send and process data at different rates(fixed rates)... if you go and read up on some programmers talking about the difficulties of dealing with that fact you'd understand.  I'm not trying to discredit the Cell, but people think it's the end all be all and it's not.  It has many flaws that hold it back and Sony's implementation of it in the PS3 was half assed like most of what they did this gen.  And the Cell in the PS3 inly has 6 SPEs for use for games.

but it was never build for gaming as it's primary idea

what ever man

 

if you go and read up on some programmers talking about the difficulties of dealing with that fact you'd understand

which programmer's would that be huh?

 

And the Cell in the PS3 inly has 6 SPEs for use for games.

 

that depend's

that depend's on what you are wanting do do with Each core :

example Warhawk's developer stated this:

Incognito's  talking about using Cell to render geometry:

4. What did you do on this game that you couldn’t do on another platform?

It’s hard to answer this and not sound like a gratuitous SONY sales pitch
Although I would say it’s the sum-total of all of our natural phenomenon in the game. Our clouds, procedural water, atmospheric scattering, terrain, etc. All of this stuff runs in parallel on all 7 SPUs simultaneously every frame – I’m still not sure if the game community is giving enough credit to just how fast the SPUs really are.

-dylan-jobe

once again..your a real funny guy

Of the 8 SPE`s 1 is redundant and one is used for non gaming purposes like running the OS.

He is right, they ARE using all 7 SPE`s, only 6 of em though can ever be used for games since the seventh will always be ocupied with other stuff.

 



heruamon on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
heruamon said:
BTW...what kind of beer are we talking about...lol...I'm a heineken man myself.

 

 Here in Belgium Heineken is considered an insult.

Saying You drink Heineken is much worse then saying I did your mom.

Well, I am going to end of insulting ALOT of people in Brussels, the next time I fly thru...because I love the stuff.

 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Procrastinato on 24 February 2009
heruamon said:

I'm not sure it's screwed, but many where banking on the ps3 dominating the gaming sphere, and driving the adaption of the chip for another functions...and that's not really happening on a mass markeet scale.  PS2 had almost reached 100 milion ( if not more) by the release of 360, so it wasn't pie-in-the-sky by sony, but the console just met too much competition, and it lacked transformational tech to covince consumers to accept the higher price.  With the current losses incurred by Sony, you have to wonder when you'll see the PS$.  Antoehr thing is you're constantly hearing the talk about how developers are JUST now starting to learn to program for the PS3...so looking at the timeline:

- 2010...programmers start to really push the ps3....

- 2011/2012...Nintendo/M$ launch new console....

Won't this put the ps4 is the same position as the ps3 wrt to the next generation?

 

It depends on where Sony goes with the PS4.  If they continue to push the envelope, they made a genious decision -- the future versions of the Cell will likely be 100% BC with the PS3, whereas both MS and Nintendo need to switch gears.. and in MS' case, emulating the Xenon will be hard to impossible on any other architecture, because a souped-up version of the Xenon would generate huge amounts of heat, and cost a truckload thanks to transistor count.  

MS is basically stuck with dumping the previous gen's software library next time around, unless they choose to only mildly upgrade the CPU, and focus on the GPU (which I believe will be their course).  The days of BC are evaporating, since speed is coming with parallelism, rather than raw single-thread horsewpower increases.  The Cell is the only chip really capable of growing in such an environment, while still maintaining BC.

If Sony decides to make a Sony Wii, they just wasted a bunch of money on the Cell and the PS3.  A tiny version of the PS3 could replace the Wii in the next gen, for all we know.  It certainly has the power to grow, and it continues to get cheaper and cheaper to build.  45nm Cells will likely be in PS3s in the middle of this year, well in advance of the 45nm Xenon/Xenos combo chip, which will probably arrive next year sometime.

Sony has the most options in the next gen.  They haven't stumbled in that dept. at all.  They are in a really good position, with both the PS4 and the PSP2, as long as they can keep the marketshare up, which is a big hurdle.

 



 

Fishie on 24 February 2009
Procrastinato said:
Fishie said:
Procrastinato said:

 

Actually, the video game market blew DVD sales (not DVD + Box Office.. yet) out of the water last year.  You're at least 0 for 2 now.

Here's an educational link:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6203677.html

 

 

Its one of the most perpetuated lies in existence.

When these outlets talk about box office revenue in the US or worldwide getting beat by videogames they count videogame hardware and compare it to ONLY US OUTPUT.  Basically its HOLLYWOOD AND THATS IT.

Thats why I mentioned Bollywood, count international box office revenue from all movies made worldwide and the entire games industry DOES NOT EVEN COMPARE.

 

Regardles of those things though I first reacted to a post that said games made more money then movies.

And that one is laughable to the extreme.

With movies you first get theatrical releases, then DVD`s, pay per view, cable and network rights, airline and cruiseline rights, merchandising at chain restaurants(McDonalds pays big bucks for something like Wal E) etcetera. All continuing revenue streams games dont get.

The link explicitly states that its talking worldwide revenue.  You're saying they're making it up?  Or... you're trying to lump in a whole load of other industries to change the argument?

 

 

 Yes they are making it up.

They only count box office revenue of Hollywood output.

Look at the anual figures by US studios, add those up and it will be roughly the same as the figure they quote for worldwide box office revenue.

They dont count Bollywood, they dont count output by Japan, China, Thailand etcetera.

Only movies published by Hollywood studios.

Lol, you are awesome.  I nearly spilled my brew.  The link was news from a worldwide tracking agency, not an American one, but... I bet they don't count pirated DVDs either!  The rats!

 

 

 

Oh wait, I was on a different paralel here.

This is with regards to DVD sales, well yeah the games industry has a higher turnover but AGAIN for the games industry they count hardware, peripherals, services(like XBox live gold) etcetera to get their turnover figure while for DVD`s they ONLY COUNT THE SALES OF THE DISCS.

To make it a fair comparison they should either ONLY count boxed software(physical game discs and packaged DVD`s) OR count everything for both.

Again, for games they count 400$ towards the games biz whenever someone buys a PS3, they count downloadable content on PSN, Live etcetera, they count seperately bought controllers, memory cards, keypads, bluetooth headsets, nunchuks, xbox live subscriptions, and even MOVIES BOUGHT TROUGH PSN OR XBOX LIVE.

To make it a fair comparison sales of DVD/BD players(including xbox 360 and PS3) should then be included with the DVD sales, replacement remote controlls should be included, digital downloads trough services like ITunes should be included etcetera yet they are not.

Software wise, the movie sales still outpace those of games and that is NOT including box office revenue, rentals, licensing for pay per view, cable, airlines, cruises etcetera etcetera.