Again, Why does it matter if a game has much marketing or not??? What you're saying is that if a game doesn't have much marketing then it should be labeled trash no matter how good it is. Hey everyone! richardhutnik is saying Zack & Wiki, Okami, Braid, Audiosurf and World of Goo are all "trash" and should be ignored!! What truly matters is if the game is successful or not. Whether that is achieved by selling 100k or 10 millions, that is up to various factors.

And I guess I have to tell you this one more time: Most PC revenue is from online! The shift from Retail to online is absolutely natural and is the evolution of PC gaming. There are more and more people that feel it's pointless to buy games on discs because it doesn't bring any additional benefits compared to the digital copies.

And it's funny that you mention holiday shopping, because several DD Services also have holiday deals. Last winter holiday, Steam made a huge sale on all of it's games for an entire week. I myself, who didn't expect to buy Steam games in the holiday, ended up buying 7 PC games on Steam. And if you think I bought too much, there were PC gamers that bought dozens of games from Steam in that week. And apparently the sales of UT3 was so sucessful that Epic even decided to give Steam support of their game, by adding achievements to the Steam version and allowing Steam integration of the retail copy of UT3.

You're the one who doesn't have any business sense. Only Mass-appealing games can support significant marketing. Didn't you know that game companies only usually spend 10% of the expected revenue of the game for marketing? No one is idiot enough to spend dozens of millions on ads for a game because it will eat away on the game's profits. The good thing about Digital Distribution is that it possesses an efficient marketing system that allows the ads to reach the intended audience with an 100% success rate. You still keep talking about retail this, retail that, but the truth is most PC gamers are past that and will keep using DD more and more until DD compltely takes over the traditional boxed games.

One last thing: You still haven't given my any proof for the support of your claims. Please give me meaningful figures/numbers, or else I'll just have to label you as an ignorant of the videogame industry.

shio, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point you've just gone completely insane with your bolded, double-exclamation-point raving.

It just rattles my mind how can someone judge a game based on the amount of marketing it has. How would you respond when a guy comes to you and says that JRPGs (or any niche/indie game) should be ignored because they're niche/indie or doesn't have enough ads?

If you actually read what he said, you would see that he made no statements as to the quality of those games.  You are now just making up things to argue aginst.

No, he did say that. Here's how it went:

Me: "Consoles do not have "more genres". Where are the Simulation games? Adventure games? How many RPGs? And Strategy games? etc..."

Richardhutnik:
"RPGs?  You want to count every garage game effort and multiplayer free web stuff?"
"And don't get cute by hitting garage games, which then will make me get into Live Community games as a counterpoint."
"Arcade racers.  How many are due out new for 2009 (for PC)?  And I don't mean garage games either."

Me: "PC pretty much gets all the multiplatform arcade racers from consoles. And what the hell is with this garage games thing?! If a game is good, does it matter how it was made?"

Richardhutnik: "Garage games are indie developer stuff.  They are like the XBox Live Community games.  Anyone can produce anything in there.  Yes, indie developers will do games of about all genres."

Me:
"Does it matter if it's indie or not? If a game is great then it's great, simple as that.
Would you ignore Sins of a Solar Empire because it was only made by 4 guys?
Would you ignore Audiosurf?
Would you ignore World of Goo?
Would you ignore....
Seriously, that is the most stupid argument I've come across recently."

Richardhutnik:
"On Indie games... Indie games aren't a measure of their development team, but who publishes them. If it isn't published by the likes of Stardock but self-published on some site, it is an Indie game. The problem with Indie developers is that normal people don't know the games exist."

Me: "Again, it doesn't matter if they have a publisher or not - if the game is good, then it's good."

Richardhutnik: "So, you are looking for PC gaming to become an "out of sight, out of mind" subculture thing, that most people aren't going to mess with.   Even if the games are great, they will not get attention."

Me:
"You are a piece of work. Why does it matter if a game gets attention or not? If the game is good, then it's there for people that want to play it. Again I call games like Sins of a Solar Empire and Audiosurf - are they non-factor because they don't sell that many copies?

So your reasoning is that if a game doesn't sell like 200k, then it's trash?! Oh dear... Thank god that movie critics don't think like you, or else great movies like 'No Country for Old Men' and 'Slumdog Millionaire' wouldn't be able to win awards because they're not popular enough. I bet we'd instead get the mediocre Spiderman 3 win the oscars."

Richardhutnik:
"The reason why getting attention matters is that this part is called, MARKETING. Without marketing, the games don't nearly generate the same level of sales. This is why attention matters. On a platform like the PC, which has no barriers to entry, you will find that it is bound to get some good, obscure titles for it, just by number of developers who want to prove themselves. If, for example, Sins of A Solar Empire were not published by Stardock, it wouldn't of done nearly as well as it did. It would of been lost in the shuffle. This is why MARKETING and advertising and publishers matter."

Me:
"UGGGHHH.... 99% of PC games are NOT advertised! So by your reasoning we should completely ignore 99% of PC games?!

Audiosurf did NOT have ads, so we should say it didn't exist? King's Bounty: The Legend (great SRPG) did NOT have ads, so we should believe it didn't exist?! Galactic Civilizations 2 did NOT have ads, so we should ignore it?! Etc...

UGGHH, it like I'm talking to a wall. Why does it matter if a game has advertisement or mass appeal? Not all games need ads to be successful.

What matters to the Industry is for the games to be successful, and if a game can have that with only 100k sold, then all the better. Everything you said is completely wrong."

He clearly dismisses indie games by using the fact that they're not very advertised as a reason.

Might as well focus on this, because it sums up things.  Guess which games cause growth in the industry, and get AAA production budgets?  The game better end up having mass-appeal or it gets relegated to the area of indie and low budget arena, which don't get in the minds of the audience and don't lead to growth.  Exception here is massive-multiplayer games that can support ad review, or something like Runescape.  This doesn't mean such games should be ignored or not looked at.  Games like Puzzle Quest deserve attention.  However, they won't drive the industry to large sales.  One may get a Portal type Orange Box experience (like what also saw with Geometry Wars in Project Gotham).

The industry does have issues here.  It is trapped in a non-profitable growth cycle.  It is growing, but companies are losing money.  Production costs are way too high at this point.  Digital distribution does a GREAT job fitting niches.  XBox Live Marketplace, along with community games, fits into this mold.  And there is the Indie/Garage Games that also fit in here.  However, these won't produce multi-million sellers and generate a ton of interest and revenues to get people to care.

And, unless someone can come up with better ways to advertise and market, and new ways, don't expect to see them having a cultural impact and buzz the way the Wii, Halo and others fit in.  It is these titles, which will end up being exclusively if PC gaming goes 100% digital distribution, which drive industry growth and help fund the Indie projects.

The industry is becoming more and more like the movie industry, with big budget titles that generate revenues (hit driven) that are mass appeal, and other niche titles being like direct to DVD or Indie film production.  This is the reality we face.  Anyhow, carry on thinking that an industry that is 100% driven by digital distribution will match the size of one that is in retail environments.

shio seems to be getting overly defensive at this point.  It is a shame, but this is why I am feeling the conversation is over.  I was looking at what drives the industry and growth, and shio goes off and rants about, "BUT PCs HAVE GOOD INDIE DESIGNS! Doesn't matter how well they sell, but they are good!"  At this point, it becomes two conversations, and is pretty much over.

Let me go on the records to say sales are not always a measure of quality.  However, they do show what kind of funding future projects will get, and if they are able to justify sufficient funding to make them be considered AAA.  A good, low budget game can come about.  I just finished with Miner: Dig Deep.  That is a low budget (200 Credit) XBox 360 Community game.  It has very low production budget, and is low production in visuals and sound.  Does the job, and is addictive.  Can't see it being worth more than that.  It has the same roughness that indie titles usuall do.  Oh yes, and the QA is a bit off.  The game has bugs and glitches.  As I got all the equipment and still continued to play, around 1400 meters down, the game froze up on me.  High production catches this.

Of course, you get some lower profile titles with high quality, like Puzzle Quest.  And Popcap does these also.  But the mass appeal games, will end up needing to be bigger budget in all ways, and end up likely leading on consoles.  These equivalent to movie blockbusters, will be what drives industry growth.

*High Five*

I agree, it seems like shio was not debating the same topic as you were.

You are twisting my words - I said that it doesn't matter if a game is indie or not, only how good the game is. But you still dismiss games based on their mass appeal/marketing, which is VERY idiotic.

So what if a game has almost no ads... The game is still there for people that are interested. The game may not be interesting for you but it could be game of the year for another guy. Audiosurf is a great example of an indie game that is awesome. If MGS4 was an indie game, would you ignore it because it was indie?

Seriously, look at Sins of a Solar Empire. It may have found a publisher, but the game could've been very well an indie effort: it was made by only 4 guys with a budget of less than $1 million. Furthermore, the game was an 4X/RTS Hybrid, which should be called a niche type of game.

Check my previous post to see what we're talking about. As I said, richardhutnik believes that indie and niche games should be ignored because they don't have enough mainstream appeal/marketing.