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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Killzone 2 VS Gears of War 2 through the eyes of a programmer

alephnull on 06 February 2009
jetrii said:
alephnull said:
Not that the KZ2 people don't need to be put in their place, but the thread parent doesn't contain anything measurable and just engages in a bunch of hand waving. Furthermore, the ridiculous OS comments neutralize any effect the appeal to authority has.

 

If you are not pleased with my simple explanation, you are free to read the more technical discussion on page 5. Also, what OS comment are you talking about?

The "OS" numbers I see bandied about look like the size of firmware updates to me, most of which are userspace applications.

I highly doubt either the kernel used by either the 360 or the ps3 is larger than 10 MB and  probably much less than that. Even if they decided to cram a bunch of user space programs into kernel space ala NT they would all just end up getting swapped out anyway.



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jetrii on 06 February 2009
alephnull said:
jetrii said:
alephnull said:
Not that the KZ2 people don't need to be put in their place, but the thread parent doesn't contain anything measurable and just engages in a bunch of hand waving. Furthermore, the ridiculous OS comments neutralize any effect the appeal to authority has.

 

If you are not pleased with my simple explanation, you are free to read the more technical discussion on page 5. Also, what OS comment are you talking about?

The "OS" numbers I see bandied about look like the size of firmware updates to me, most of which are userspace applications.

I highly doubt either the kernel used by either the 360 or the ps3 is larger than 10 MB and  probably much less than that. Even if they decided to cram a bunch of user space programs into kernel space ala NT they would all just end up getting swapped out anyway.

Decided to reply to this before I left. Right now, you are pulling numbers out of thin air. Do a Google search for Xbox 360 OS footprint or Playstation 3 OS footprint and you'll have hundreds of sites confirming what I said.

Xbox 360 OS = 32mb of ram

PS3 OS = ~70-80MB. The sites will report less than this but that's just the OS memory, there are other things which also take up memory on the PS3.

 



Good news Everyone!

I've invented a device which makes you read this in your head, in my voice!

dbot on 06 February 2009

I do appreciate your effort with this thread. I think you would need to see additional shots of Killzone to determine if it includes any natural objects for comparison. I was always under the impression that third person shooters(GeoW2) would look better than first person shooters(Killzone 2) due to the proximity of the camera to the textures. The natural first person cover system in Killzone would further this problem since you would always have the camera zoomed to a texture. To use the logic in your original post, do you think that making a third person shooter is "taking the easy way" as well?

I also appreciate the fact that you believe that the 360 could handle a game like Killzone, but we will never know if you are right. Any further "technical" posts on this matter will lead us into the inevitable fanboy hell of technical specifications. To sum it up, I would rather own the console that is playing Killzone 2 as opposed to the console that could POTENTIALLY play Killzone 2.

Anyway, nice thread. It is definitely a new approach to the debate.



Thanks for the input, Jeff.

 

 

kakarotto on 06 February 2009

One of the nicest post I´ve seen around here. Congrats.



Euphoria14 on 06 February 2009

@Dbot

I believe the 360 could handle the textures, character models, etc... in Killzone 2 as well.

Do I believe it can handle everything that is going on in the background, the physics, animations? No I do not.

I would love to be proven wrong though. That way someone has to up the ante.



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jetrii on 06 February 2009
dbot said:
I do appreciate your effort with this thread. I think you would need to see additional shots of Killzone to determine if it includes any natural objects for comparison. I was always under the impression that third person shooters(GeoW2) would look better than first person shooters(Killzone 2) due to the proximity of the camera to the textures. The natural first person cover system in Killzone would further this problem since you would always have the camera zoomed to a texture. To use the logic in your original post, do you think that making a third person shooter is "taking the easy way" as well?

I also appreciate the fact that you believe that the 360 could handle a game like Killzone, but we will never know if you are right. Any further "technical" posts on this matter will lead us into the inevitable fanboy hell of technical specifications. To sum it up, I would rather own the console that is playing Killzone 2 as opposed to the console that could POTENTIALLY play Killzone 2.

Anyway, nice thread. It is definitely a new approach to the debate.

 

One more reply and I am out of here. I think I have an addiction to VGChartz. The whole third person/first person view is a little irrelevant. I suspect the difference would be tiny. Plus, GoWII has to render the character on the screen while in Killzone only the gun and hands need to be rendered. Also, third person games usually have a farther view distance due to the elavated camera. Although, that is an interesting point which i've never heard anyone bring up before. Kudos.

And of course, this is purely an educated guess that is up for debate.



Good news Everyone!

I've invented a device which makes you read this in your head, in my voice!

dbot on 06 February 2009

@Euphoria - We will never know, unless MS buys Sony

I really think the original thread would have been better if he compared 2 games within the same genre (MGS4 and GeoW2).  Comparing a fps to a tps doesn't seem like a valid comparison.  I had a chance to play the Killzone demo last night and I agree with everyone else, it really is a beautiful game.



Thanks for the input, Jeff.

 

 

BrayanA on 06 February 2009

Environment:
This time I pick even more images from 4 different site

GoW2
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9476/1560_0001.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9476/1560_0009.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9476/1560_0006.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9476/1560_0016.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111547098.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111633254.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111639691.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111442490.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111620504.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111435771.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111554270.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111446349.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/919/919698/gears-of-war-2-20081014111608207.jpg
http://www.1up.com/media/03/6/4/2/lg/561.jpg?r
http://www.1up.com/media/03/6/4/2/lg/562.jpg?r
http://www.1up.com/media/03/6/4/2/lg/533.jpg?r
http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/938/938476/gears-of-war-2-20081215113639628.jpg
http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/938/938476/gears-of-war-2-20081215113620128.jpg
http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/925/925962/gears-of-war-2-20081031114115105.jpg



KZ2
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9001/1306_0012.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/9001/1306_0005.jpg
http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/8363/1306_0002.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/935/935547/killzone-2-20081203111732822.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/935/935547/killzone-2-20081203111750494.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/900/900613/killzone-2-20080820100319662.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/900/900613/killzone-2-20080820100332521.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/906/906862/killzone-2-20080901052338642.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/900/900613/killzone-2-20080820100343943.jpg
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/815/815434/killzone-2-20070824053739326.jpg
http://www.1up.com/media/03/6/5/8/lg/834.jpg?r
http://www.1up.com/media/03/6/5/8/lg/843.jpg?r
http://www.1up.com/media/03/5/7/7/lg/114.jpg?r
http://www.1up.com/media/03/4/4/6/lg/506.jpg?r
http://ps3media.gamespy.com/ps3/image/article/936/936134/killzone-2-20081205002216070.jpg
http://ps3media.gamespy.com/ps3/image/article/936/936134/killzone-2-20081205114434534.jpg
http://ps3media.gamespy.com/ps3/image/article/874/874787/killzone-2-20080516034140384.jpg
http://ps3media.gamespy.com/ps3/image/article/839/839080/killzone-2-20071203100321774.jpg

As you can see GoW2 again offers more variable environment, colors and locations. They are also more complex with different kind of shapes and looks. Of course, nobody knows what final KZ2 will offer.



alephnull on 06 February 2009
jetrii said:
alephnull said:
jetrii said:
alephnull said:
Not that the KZ2 people don't need to be put in their place, but the thread parent doesn't contain anything measurable and just engages in a bunch of hand waving. Furthermore, the ridiculous OS comments neutralize any effect the appeal to authority has.

 

If you are not pleased with my simple explanation, you are free to read the more technical discussion on page 5. Also, what OS comment are you talking about?

The "OS" numbers I see bandied about look like the size of firmware updates to me, most of which are userspace applications.

I highly doubt either the kernel used by either the 360 or the ps3 is larger than 10 MB and  probably much less than that. Even if they decided to cram a bunch of user space programs into kernel space ala NT they would all just end up getting swapped out anyway.

Decided to reply to this before I left. Right now, you are pulling numbers out of thin air. Do a Google search for Xbox 360 OS footprint or Playstation 3 OS footprint and you'll have hundreds of sites confirming what I said.

Xbox 360 OS = 32mb of ram

PS3 OS = ~70-80MB. The sites will report less than this but that's just the OS memory, there are other things which also take up memory on the PS3.

I did a decent amount of kernel development before I got into HPC. I have seen these numbers before and do not believe them because of said experience.



dbot on 06 February 2009
jetrii said:
dbot said:
I do appreciate your effort with this thread. I think you would need to see additional shots of Killzone to determine if it includes any natural objects for comparison. I was always under the impression that third person shooters(GeoW2) would look better than first person shooters(Killzone 2) due to the proximity of the camera to the textures. The natural first person cover system in Killzone would further this problem since you would always have the camera zoomed to a texture. To use the logic in your original post, do you think that making a third person shooter is "taking the easy way" as well?

I also appreciate the fact that you believe that the 360 could handle a game like Killzone, but we will never know if you are right. Any further "technical" posts on this matter will lead us into the inevitable fanboy hell of technical specifications. To sum it up, I would rather own the console that is playing Killzone 2 as opposed to the console that could POTENTIALLY play Killzone 2.

Anyway, nice thread. It is definitely a new approach to the debate.

 

One more reply and I am out of here. I think I have an addiction to VGChartz. The whole third person/first person view is a little irrelevant. I suspect the difference would be tiny. Plus, GoWII has to render the character on the screen while in Killzone only the gun and hands need to be rendered. Also, third person games usually have a farther view distance due to the elavated camera. Although, that is an interesting point which i've never heard anyone bring up before. Kudos.

And of course, this is purely an educated guess that is up for debate.

I appreciate the kudos, but I didn't come up with the idea.  I believe it is generally accepted in the industry.  You are correct that the character model needs to be rendered, but the fixed proximity of the camera in relation to objects allow for less detailed textures.  You can always find posts of blurry textures in FPSs such as COD4/5 and I am sure some will be posted from Killzone 2. 

It's good to see a fellow Marylander on the site.

 

 



Thanks for the input, Jeff.