when did I do that, exactly?  You always want it to seem that it's a one-sided arguement.   I've been playing FPS since Doom 1, which had little story.  If you think Halflife wasn't better than older FPS then this arguement is over.  Really, your pompous attitude makes is very annoying to discuss anything with.

you know you actually have a interesting way of showing when youre at your wits end.. i dont think you actually believe i think those games are better than half life nor do you believe that the story of doom has anything to do with this.. because since it was one of the first fps of course there is no story but its still an important game..

but you know all that.. then why say i t  its just for the sake of having an argument isnt it ?  tell me what to you want to archieve with this? and as for being pompous yes guilty as charged.. as for you you have a way of twisting my every word ...

  and ..if you have been playing fps since doom.. how come you never played any of those i mentioned..  or actually tried to disprove my theory doing so by talking about what you think about those games

Kantor said: @windbane: Here's what he is saying (I think): In the old days, before this newfangled internet, and...sorry, couldn't resist In the old days, there used to be TWO kinds of FPS: Story and SP based games, like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex, and MP-focused games, like Unreal Tournament and Quake. Terislb was a fan of the former. In recent times, these two have been contracted into just FPS. They try to put effort into the single player, but they need to put effort into the multi, and they realise that it is more important nowadays, looking at a game like Halo 3. I think this is a consequence of terislb sucking at FPS games, and being pissed when he loses online Lol, jk.

Less of the 'old days' please!  Sorry to butt in but I think you and terislb have exchanged some good points, and this one gets to the heart of it - namely that, starting back on PCs to be honest then migrating to consoles via Halo 2, MP has increasinly become a major element of what many consider an FPS.

For me this is a shame as, I think like terislb if I read his arguments right, I lean more to classic SP based FPS with MP as a bonus I might/might not want to bother with - probably the Half Life series, Deus Ex, System Shock 1&2 and Thief 1&2 for me hit the kind of SP experience I wanted right on the head.  Deus Ex and System Shock 2 in particular remain my all time favourites for what I want in an FPS (which is more of a hybrid with FPS/RPG with a deep, involving story and a great deal of content).

Personally I don't think its all MP that's too blame though.  FPS also became linked with a push for higher and higher graphics expecations, and over time the cost of creating something like Deus Ex or System Shock 2, which were both pretty long games by today's SP standards, Deus Ex easily clocking in at 40 plus hours of SP if you really delved into the depths of the game, has risen dramatically.

I look at Gears, Halo 3, KZ2 and I see short SP elements that are fun to play through, but seem constrained by the sheer effort it would take to really expand them much further.  Add in the need to develop a robust MP as well and the cost seems prohibative - not to mention the time in development such games would then spend.

I was glad to see Bioshock focus on SP, and it benefited from a deeper story and better length as a result, but even there like many I was disappointed at how many concessions were made to make it 'actioney' to try and counter the lack of MP and draw in more shooter fans.

The only other title that's come close for me to a Deus Ex is Fallout 3, although I much prefer a strong, single story to a weak RPG main quest with a bunch of other quests (all of which were good, but none of them added up to the meat of Deus Ex story).

I've come to terms with the fact that in some ways I represent a smaller target customer base than the one demanding the latest short SP with an great MP element.

That goodness I've still got Half Life EP3 to come, and quirky FPS like STALKER as well.

Still, it's not all bad.  I do enjoy titles like KZ2, I just pine for something to really give me a Deus Ex, SS 2 experience again.  Sadly, I'm not counting on Deus Ex 3 to do so as I expect it to be closer to Bioshock than the original Deus Ex.

Anyway, long post unexpectedly - thanks for making the points you did you two.

By the way if you guys haven't noticed...

Killzone 2 sold about 373k copies in just the FIRST 3 DAYS. It's on the main page here.

That's just in 'others'.

Oh, I forgot to state that.

Also, I honestly think my scores aren't being kept on track... For instance I wrote down my record before playing which was 1528 kills. I wrote down that I got +55 more kills but in "My Statistics" it says I only got +36. wtf is this? By the way, I waited 2 hours before checking again.

well at least you know you are pompous as you show again in the first sentence before admitting it in the 2nd paragraph.

I just don't understand what you are trying to prove at this point.  You are saying that multiplayer takes away from single player, but there are more developers now and more game types and plenty of great stories out there to experience.  Why does a game have to be in first person?  Why didn't you like F.E.A.R., CoD4, Bioshock, Halflife 2  (ep 2) that have come out recently and had good single player stories?  A lot of people like multiplayer so it's not going to go away, but there are still single player games out there to that are good.  The Darkness was decent and had some unique things (such as watching full movies in game, which some people hate but I liked).

My whole point is I don't understand this nostalgia for old games unless you really just want System Shock 3 and Deux Ex 3 and that's all that will satisfy you.  If that's the case, then I hope you find a game exactly like those. 

Meanwhile, there are plenty of games out there that have good single player experiences and millions of people will continue to enjoy them and their multiplayer experiences as well.  Multiplayer is worth hundreds of hours so it's nice for a game to do it well, though.

More interestingly, it put the PS3 above the 360 in Others.

Didn't see that one coming. PS3 > 360 WW this week? It's got a good 21k lead from Japan and Others. We'll see what KZ2 does in NA, but it's probably not a lot.

PS3 is going to outsell the Wii for about the next 5 weeks. Yakuza 3 came out last week, same time as Killzone and it is really hyped there. Then Resident Evil 5 comes out just next week and finally, Final Fantasy 7 Advent Children + Final Fantasy 13 Demo will come out in April.

^That's only in Japan, this is in Others, where the PS3 has not outsold the Wii since June 2008 (and that was once), and has not outsold the 360 since September 2008.