It bothers me when pro-life people try to make the argument that pro-choice people are advocating abortion or advocating murder. I think abortion is a terrible thing, and I would never suggest that somebody get one. I think people should use birth control effectively to avoid this problem in the first place (which statistically is what has been happening, which I think everyone can be happy about). But that doesn't mean that I feel like I have the right to make that decision for everyone else. I like living in a society that can make this distinction.

If someone wants to have an abortion, that is completely up to them. I don't condone their decision, but I am completely respectful of their right to make that decision for themselves.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! 101% agree. This is exactly the way i think.

Akuma, what about other social issues that you may not do yourself, and think bad of, but still think is OK for others?

Slavery?
Illicit Drug Use?
Smoking?
Drunk Driving?

Ect.

To some people, there are some issues that are morally outrageous, and are black and white. Some (if not many) pro-lifers feel this way about abortion, and pro-choice.

First, you are trying to bleed together morality and social laws once again.  I'm not going to entangle myself in that.  A fetus has little or no rights under our legal system.  I am perfectly fine with that decision.  Its not like a fetus can walk into a court room and file a lawsuit or something, and even a parent who tried to file a suit on his behalf when he was in utero couldn't do so because he isn't recognized by our legal system.  He has no name, no birth certificate, and a tenuous amount of rights.  Furthermore, there is a conflicting interest because the fetus is literally a resident of another person whose rights must also be protected. 

A person who is enslaved by someone or killed by a drunk driver DOES have rights under our legal system.  A person who harms them doesn't have a conflicting interest that we must protect.  They are simply harming someone else for an entirely selfish reason, not because they are responsible for taking care of that person if they are born.  It isn't an entirely selfish decision to have an abortion, although pro-life people will try to say that it is.

Giving rights to a fetus is extremely complicated, and can get us into a chicken before the egg situation.  Do we start giving people's sperm and eggs rights?  I'm perfectly fine with the approach our legal system has taken.

1) Already addressed this

2) I generally don't care what drugs people choose to use as long as they aren't committing crimes because of the drugs they are one.

3) Same as above

4) Already addressed this.

mrstickball said: Final-Fan said: mrstickball said: Very well then, Final Fan. I can understand your point that *if* (which is where we argue) a Fetus is meaningless/not a human, then those 'rights' come in to play. But it's the pro-life position that the *if* statement swings in favor of it being a Fetus. Hopefully, in the future, we get better medical direction to remove the grey area. But until then, I tend to be on the cautious, lets-not-kill-50m million fetuses side of the argument Well, I think we have a reasonable amount of proof that a lot of what you consider gray area really isn't ... but then you disagree Then we can save that for another topic, I guess. But when I see a picture like this (warning: Graphic if you consider a fetus anything of worth) it makes me sincerely desire that said entity get a shot at life, rather than the whims of a disillusioned mother. If you want to argue if a fetus is a useless piece of flesh, unworthy to be considered anything of worth, then I await a healthy debate on the subject. As I said previously, I am very convinced on this matter that said fetuses should get a shot at life. Being pro-choice, to me, should be a matter if the mother wants to keep the child, or give it away. Of course, that view is not what we're debating, however. I can only hope that, in my life, my wife and I can adopt as many children as possible, and give them them a shot at a good life.

Those kind of shock tactics would make PETA proud.  Do you think you could tell the difference between the pictured body and a monkey of similar age? 

I would argue that a fetus has worth as a potential person, but is not a person.  So if the mother feels it would be unfair hardship on both her and the potential child if she brought it into the world, then she may decide to take steps to prevent that from happening.  This destroys the potential, but doesn't destroy a person, because no person (yet) existed.  It is unfortunate when this occurs but it can sometimes be the least bad option available. 

On another note, I understand that this is a subject you have very, very strong feelings about, but please keep your rhetoric in check.  When you say stuff like "a useless piece of flesh, unworthy to be considered anything of worth" it makes me question your ability to look at this from any point of view other than your own in a rational, calm way. 

Slavery, mrstickball? Really? If you don't want to have a discussion, just leave. Hell, you're a mod, you could use your own Holocaust/Nazi references as an excuse to lock the thread. Just stop these wacko "comparisons", okay?

I don't see how anyone's position in the abortion debate could possibly be related to slavery, except possibly one might argue that a woman might be enslaved by being shackled to an unwanted parasitic human being growing inside of her. I wouldn't approve of that characterization, but it's the closest thing I can see to "slavery" within miles of this debate.

Final, I wasn't trying to argue that slavery is related to abortion.

I was trying to ask the question of 'could you be against a specific act (such as abortion), but say that it's still a person's choice, regardless?' and then compare it to other various concepts, such as slavery, drug usage, and other shades of questions, down to smoking. It was more of an introspective question rather than a direct one.

I understand the other side of the issue - that a fetus is not a person, therefore has no rights, and it's entire life is solely dependent on the mother's decision of carrying it to term, outside of natural, and unnatural complications. Is that a wrong view of your side of the argument?

Yeah, my second paragraph was an overreaction because I know you weren't trying to make a direct link.  But still, really.  You might as well have asked about other "social issues" he might dislike but allow in others like murder and rape. 

Yeah, that statement is accurate, as far as it goes.  But when you say things like what I pointed out before, it seems to say that you think someone defending legal abortion thinks no more of a fetus than one might feel about, oh, a can opener.  In actuality, a fetus is very important and any choice or action that affects it must be done with great care, including the decision whether or not to allow it to become a child.  That is a great burden and hardship as well as privilege and honor, on the child as well as the mother; and sometimes the most humane option is for that child to never exist.  Not kill -- not unmake, since a person has not yet been made -- but prevent from existing -- by destroying (yes, killing) the corporeal form that the potential person would have come to occupy.  It is regrettable that such a choice should be the least bad option, but it should not be a shameful thing when the choice is made carefully. 

Someone who honestly gets an abortion with as little emotion as taking birth control or wearing a condom has clearly not thought through the reality of the situation.

Two things people do, that really piss me off. 1. Murder 2. Control


Begin pro-lifes rant.

I don't have a vagina or a uterus. I don't plan on having kids. If I did decide to have kids later, I wouldn't see what my imaginary-wife and my choice have to do with what other people have to do. I wouldn't ask a woman to have an abortion but I wouldn't be upset if she did, it's not a living human it's in a uterus. I also happen to dislike abortion very much.

So until we have a bunch of people willing to spend money to help parents to be who don't want their kids, spend time to giving emotional support during and after pregnancy, and start adopting, I will say I am pro-choice.

Now, if people start taking responsibility for their choices (as opposed to choosing to petition for a ban abortion while also electing to turn their backs on the needs of society) then they I might listen to their argument.

In the mean time, I'll continue to tell so called "conservative-minded" people to STFU, they're giving real American conservatives a bad name.

Didn't their mothers/pastors teach them to stay out of other people's business unless they're willing to face the consequences? For god's sake what the fuck are these people good for?

They talk and talk and talk. They don't do anything to help. They're not adopting. They vote for less social spending and more war spending.

It all comes back to their belief that they are better. In the privacy of their own homes they say things like "Blacks/hispanics/minorities/poor people are responsible for ALL their problems, we pay for everything already with our higher taxes, what else do they want from us?"

Well, your taxes would be a lot fucking lower if you didn't keep voting in political idiots to ruin our foreign relations. They'd be a lot lower in the long run if you treated all kids equally and provided good education and health care because they might actually have a chance and some hope to become productive with out having to struggle against a shitty school system and the modern version of American racism.

I'm jewish, but in person I don't look too Jewish. I hear the racist shit many white people say to each other all the time. I was poor and struggled against shit no man or woman should have to struggle against. I hear their disdain for the poor. I see their wasteful, excessive, and destructive behavior first hand but remain a capitalist; I don't want to tell them how to spend their money or live their lives, so again my liberal attitude gets put on the back burner because, unlike them, I believe in Liberty, Equality, and Justice. They do not. They do not believe in anything but protect their own lives, their own property, and their own morals. They forget we have a responsibility as American, as fellow nationals, and as human beings to protect each other as well.

They roam around quoting John 3:16 or speaking of the value of life and go about sending off the military to murder muslims, living by "an eye for an eye" instead of "turning the other cheek", and justifying their evil by saying, "well they're worse". There are people who are worse, but that doesn't make them right.

They've turned our Immigration Service and Homeland Security into tools of racism and isolationism, "to protect our borders".

Stop being selfish, racist, violent animals; then talk about abortion. Work on yourselves, then you'll realize you don't need to tell others what to do.

Start taking care of your kids and try to make them a little less hateful and ignorant than you.

Here's my advice to pro-choice and pro-life alike.

end pro-life rant.

Begin pro-choice rant.

They should stop being so eager to murder babies. If they went out into the world and contributed to society instead of spending all your time posting blogs, joining facebook groups, and/or moaning about the "crazy religious right" then they wouldn't look like the lazy, mooching, baby killing douche bags that they are.

How can they justify abortion is necessary when they aren't doing everything they can to help. They're not adopting. They're not helping pregnant women. They're not volunteering with young kids. No they just bitch and moan that they don't want to be told what to do.

They can't take care of themselves physically or emotionally, so they need to be told what to do. If they got lives together, then maybe they'd have a a foundation to put that soap box up on.

They think because they believe in tolerance and peace that it justifies ignorance, laziness, selfishness, and elitism.

I'm not better than you because of what I believe or how I was born. I'm an ass hole, sure but I'm better than you because I actually do shit for people. Being good isn't about avoiding evil, it's about going out there and doing good things. At least the pro-lifers think they're helping unborn babies for their deities.

The religious people think they're right because their church tells them they are from birth. You think your right because of a circle jerk of linking blogs and civil action groups who are just as bad as "churches"...

--------------

Sometimes, there are problems the government can't solve. The reasons why people get abortions is complex. Our government is supposed to respect life and freedom. But legislating against abortion is bad for freedom. Supporting abortion is bad for society because people think fetuses are babies.

The solution isn't the government.

Go do something. Volunteer. Make someone's life better. Do what you can to build a better world. Then there will be less abortions.

Wow. Had to get that off your chest?