Comrade Tovya,

Do you believe in the Messiah? Not in The Lord Jesus Christ obviously, but some other, future Messiah?

Yes, BUT, not in the formal sense that a Christian believes.  The Jewish messiah is not the same type of messianic figure that a Christian expects.

The messiah of the Tanach is not a "savior" in the spiritual sense, but one in mortal sense... a rescuer of Israel prior to its final destruction.  I guess you could say, a militant-like messiah, but entirely mortal and certainly not a "redeemer".

On your first and second paragraphs,

You seem to think that if by being able to be in God's presence, that must mean they wouldn't go to Hell either; this does not follow.  Revelations has all people being judged in God's presence, and some are sent to Hell.  In this verse, it is clear that one can be evil and be in the presence of God, because being in His presence does not mean being saved.

Now, on the rest,

I can understand why that would probably give you the edge up, but I must disagree that that would mean you are necessarily right.  The Old Testament is filled with examples of the Israelites, who themselves were brought up in the religion, either rebelling or simply not understanding what God taught to them.

Now I am not saying that you are like that, just that's why I'm a little dubious of the argument, what with how susceptible humans seem to be to various ideologies, no matter how long they study them.

And the Christian might say to you, "You are ignoring the incarnation of God himself, and risk your soul on denying him his divinity".  I say this to illustrate that the Christian and Jew are more or less on the same starting point:  One asserts this, the other, that.

 Yes mortal, but still a person that fits to God's "game plan" for Israel, a person chosen by God and not just by accident?

Or are u an atheistic jew (I didnt read the whole thread lol) that inteprets the Torah as just a bunch of myths and legends (and some history, philosophy and identity of a people yada yada)?

I understand your stance, my friend.  But like I said prior to this, quoting Revelations from the Christian New Testament is no more "proof" than a Muslim trying to convince you to believe in Mohammed by using the Quran as reference.  It just doesn't work that way.

My point is that God doesn't require that someone be "saved".  He never has, and never will.  And by quoting a Bible that came after my own is not proof at all... it's replacement theology, which I cannot and will never agree with.

And I would certainly never say that because someone is raised "in the truth" that they will automatically follow that "truth".  Charles Manson was raised a Christian and he murdered countless people... so it goes both ways.

What I was trying to say was, it's hard to explain to a Christian why the New Testament is irrelevant because they are not raised with the same scripture as a Jew.  The Christian has one Bible, and the Jew another.  Just the same way that I will never understand your blind faith in a man who claims to be God, you will never understand why I consider the worship of that man to be idolatry.  We come from different backgrounds. 

With that being said, I can jump into the ring with just about any Christian minister and dispell his Bible because I studied it from front-to-back, but there are very few Christians who can do the same to mine.... they don't speak Hebrew, and weren't raised Jewish.  So they'll never understand this world.  I on the other hand understand Christianity quite well, and speak and read the same language they do.  I speak and read theirs, but they do not speak or read mine.  That's the difference.

As for your final comment, don't take what I said personally.  I don't care if you are a Christian or not... that's your business, not mine.  Just like a gay man who wants to remain gay, it's none of my business, so I'll never tell him otherwise.  I was simply making the point that while a Christian may very well condemn me to hell, I could just as easily condemn that same person for idolatry according to my belief.

The point is, you believe what you want to believe, and I will do the same on my part.

My Bible does not command me to go and spread "the truth" so your soul is between you and God, and it's none of my business, and I certainly will never be guilty of condemning you for anything.. that's God's job, not mine.  I just want Christians to show me the same respect.  As long as a Christian agrees to disagree with me and leaves it at that, we can get along just fine.  But as soon as a Christian tells me that my kids and I are going to burn in a fiery pit of brimstone, I take a lot of offense to that... it's no different than me telling my neighbor that I'm going to burn him alive in his house unless he comes to my way of thinkinh.  It's just not right...

If people spent half as much time worrying about themselves as they do about everyone else, this world would be a much better place.

Oh no, I am not an athiest by any means... I believe in God, but I respect a person's right to not believe.  That's what "free will" is all about.  You can be what ever you so choose, and I'll be what I want to be, and it's each of our own business.

Absolutely.  Each Jew has the potential of being moshiach in every generation, and it's certainly by the will of God... but that messiah is a mortal chosen by God, and not a supreme being in the Christian sense.

I'm an atheist with nothing against belief, only bigotry. Comrade Toyva's is the kind of faith that I can respect. A very educated, reasonable fellow that isn't claiming everybody but his denomination are enemies of god, and will be killed in Armageddon/burned for eternity/be curb stomped by bigots.

Often times people of faith think atheists don't like or don't respect people of faith, when most of the time (can't speak for everybody obviously) that's not the case, it's a disdain for willful ignorance, prejudice, and the attitude that I can't be wrong, everybody but my group is a heathen that must suffer unless they comply with my standards. But there are certainly plenty of people of faith that don't fit that group.

Thank you.

And I respect your right to be an athiest... that's what "free will" is all about.  You can choose to believe as you wish, and I can choose to believe as I do, and suprisingly, despite this, the world will still turn on it's axis, and we will both live to see another day tomorrow.

And on top of this, we could be friends, and I would never try to convince you otherwise... your business is, well, your business, not mine, and vice versa.  I think more people should be this way... can you imagine how peaceful the world would be?  I can't even imagine such a world.