Pope: Gayness as dangerous as the rainforest being destroyed.

[Comrade Tovya]

appolose said:

Comrade Tovya said:

appolose said:

A)  In that case, I'm going to have simply to disagree with you.  (Another one dead!)

B) RIP

C)  But you yourself said they had to meet the requirments because they would die otherwise.  Satan, being non-physical, does not have this problem.  So that doesn't mean evil cannot be in the presence of God. My apologizes for asserting myself so in this area; I don't want to come across like a Lego player telling an architect how to make a building, but  I feel the point is valid nontheless.

D) You mean, perfection as in never sinning?  Then this will probably be a divergent topic for us as well, because for the Christian, Romans (New Testament speaking) specifically says one sin equates to damnation, and no amount of works can eve redeem a person.  Old testament-wise, I'd probably take a far longer time to find that theology.

E)  Of course, I wouldn't be able to convince you of it that way; I'd first have to convince of my own position of Jesus.  So we would have to disagree on this again; I, taking the Christian position, think sacrifice is needed (for redemption).  You, at the Jewish position, do not.  But in any event, this whole time I was merely trying to establish and internally defend Christian theology, not necessarily convince anyone that is was actually true.

 

 

On (C) you are correct in asserting death for the human flesh, and the scriptures do not state the punishment of the soul... so I certainly will not speculate.

But with that being said, if for arguements sake, God can allow evil in his presence without the need for "purification" by a being in the spiritual form, that once again kills the idea that J.C. is needed for such a purpose.  Because if that person doesn't need an act of purification to stand before God, then that person can also go without the "blood of Jesus" and be with God... afterall, they are already dead, and hence do not need to purify themself out of fear of death before the almighty (they are already dead).

Long story short, the Christian idea of righteousness and the Jewish one are not in the least bit the same.

I know that it is hard to understand, but you just don't know what I know.  You were raised different than I, and of course, read a different Bible than I.  So it's something you'll probably never really understand.

You could understand, but that would require that you first learn to read the scriptures in Hebrew, and then completely forget everything that you were told growing up, and pretend like you don't know a thing... and then open up the Torah and start fresh from Bereishis 1:1 (genesis 1:1).  That's very hard to do, which is why a Christian will not do this.  It takes YEARS to learn Hebrew, and even longer to be proficient at it... and on top of this, you'd have to convince yourself that you know nothing at all, and start fresh. 

Do I think that it's worthwhile to do such?  Absolutely.  You'll be shocked at what you've been missing all these years, and really, you'll probably be angry that you had a bunch of lies shoved down your throat your whole life.

If you really do believe that you will stand before God one day, what will you do if you were wrong all along?  How will you react to God when you realize that you have been worshiping a man and not God?  Simple "faith" will not be enough to save you for blasphemy and worshiping of a false diety.

I know that sounds crazy, but Christians tell me that all the time... "If you don't believe in Jesus, you will burn in hell"

And I say to that same Christian, "You should be the one who is afraid.. for you are the one ignoring Hashem the God of creation and worshiping a man named Jesus and calling him God."  

 

On your first and second paragraphs,

You seem to think that if by being able to be in God's presence, that must mean they wouldn't go to Hell either; this does not follow.  Revelations has all people being judged in God's presence, and some are sent to Hell.  In this verse, it is clear that one can be evil and be in the presence of God, because being in His presence does not mean being saved.

Now, on the rest,

I can understand why that would probably give you the edge up, but I must disagree that that would mean you are necessarily right.  The Old Testament is filled with examples of the Israelites, who themselves were brought up in the religion, either rebelling or simply not understanding what God taught to them.

Now I am not saying that you are like that, just that's why I'm a little dubious of the argument, what with how susceptible humans seem to be to various ideologies, no matter how long they study them.

And the Christian might say to you, "You are ignoring the incarnation of God himself, and risk your soul on denying him his divinity".  I say this to illustrate that the Christian and Jew are more or less on the same starting point:  One asserts this, the other, that.

 

I understand your stance, my friend.  But like I said prior to this, quoting Revelations from the Christian New Testament is no more "proof" than a Muslim trying to convince you to believe in Mohammed by using the Quran as reference.  It just doesn't work that way.

My point is that God doesn't require that someone be "saved".  He never has, and never will.  And by quoting a Bible that came after my own is not proof at all... it's replacement theology, which I cannot and will never agree with.

And I would certainly never say that because someone is raised "in the truth" that they will automatically follow that "truth".  Charles Manson was raised a Christian and he murdered countless people... so it goes both ways.

What I was trying to say was, it's hard to explain to a Christian why the New Testament is irrelevant because they are not raised with the same scripture as a Jew.  The Christian has one Bible, and the Jew another.  Just the same way that I will never understand your blind faith in a man who claims to be God, you will never understand why I consider the worship of that man to be idolatry.  We come from different backgrounds. 

With that being said, I can jump into the ring with just about any Christian minister and dispell his Bible because I studied it from front-to-back, but there are very few Christians who can do the same to mine.... they don't speak Hebrew, and weren't raised Jewish.  So they'll never understand this world.  I on the other hand understand Christianity quite well, and speak and read the same language they do.  I speak and read theirs, but they do not speak or read mine.  That's the difference.

As for your final comment, don't take what I said personally.  I don't care if you are a Christian or not... that's your business, not mine.  Just like a gay man who wants to remain gay, it's none of my business, so I'll never tell him otherwise.  I was simply making the point that while a Christian may very well condemn me to hell, I could just as easily condemn that same person for idolatry according to my belief.

The point is, you believe what you want to believe, and I will do the same on my part.

My Bible does not command me to go and spread "the truth" so your soul is between you and God, and it's none of my business, and I certainly will never be guilty of condemning you for anything.. that's God's job, not mine.  I just want Christians to show me the same respect.  As long as a Christian agrees to disagree with me and leaves it at that, we can get along just fine.  But as soon as a Christian tells me that my kids and I are going to burn in a fiery pit of brimstone, I take a lot of offense to that... it's no different than me telling my neighbor that I'm going to burn him alive in his house unless he comes to my way of thinkinh.  It's just not right...

If people spent half as much time worrying about themselves as they do about everyone else, this world would be a much better place.