Here is what I believe about homosexuality. (I didn't make this up, but when I heard it, I agreed with it).

There is a fairly small percentage of people who could never find happiness in a relationship with the opposite sex (let's use 10% as an example. It might be less, it might be more.)

Inversely, There is a fairly small percentage of people who could never find happiness in a relationship with the same sex (let's use 10% again).

So for around 20% of the people in the world, they don't have a choice. Everyone else is on a sliding scale somewhere in between.

Right now, homosexuality is considered a bad thing, so culture drives those 80% of the population towards heterosexuality, but in times where it was considered a good thing to sleep with the same sex (like periods of greek times), it was the opposite. Those 80% swung the other way, and that 10% just could not do it.

Same goes when you are put in situations like prison. People who never would think of a same sex relationship get involved in one.

Of course, 90% of us want to think we are in that 10% that would never do it :)

Yeah, they often do. Apparently if you don't consider their views as completely vaild, it must be because you're a raving homophob adn secretely hate and fear their views, and not because you have totally in depth logical reasons that you just listed out in detail, even when one of those reasons specifically says; "It's up to you if you want to do it, it's none of my business, just please don't do it around me, or my children, or try to convince me or my children that it's the cool thing to do, but I'm not going to beat you up just cause I see you lighting up,"

Apparently that line somehow doesn't mean that I don't care about what 2 people do in the privacy of their own home, and instead implies that I am angered even by seeing 2 gay people walk down the street together. Go figure.

Then again, I suppose that goes right along with the logic in this line: "Straight guys can bang as many guys as they want and they might even enjoy it, and vice verse, but it always ends the same way." LOL
"No! I'm totally straight! I just occasionally like to have sex with guys on the side, that's all!"
"So you're... bisexual?"
"no! I only sleep with guys when there aren't women around."
"what does that have to do with it?"
"Everything! Duh! I don't have a choice."
"... Couldn't you just not have sex?"
"Not.... have sex? Not? What?"
"masturbate?"
"still not following you. What are you trying to say?"

Nice, so your retort is to use an overused expression that you apparently have no understand of the meaning of. I might as well stop the conversation here, because you have shown a true lack of how to hold an opposing view here. Might as well just call me a "doo-doo head" and run off to your mommy.

Apparently you have never been into any of the mentioned lifestyles, or you wouldn't call them mere fetishes. The attraction to members of the same sex is different than being attracted to people that are significantly older than you? So gender trumps age, and the two are different? Many would disagree with that. Its part of sexual orientation for some, and they wont even DATE anyone remotely near their age. Not all, but some. I'd love to see you take your argument to the S&M community, you'd get chewed up whole and spit out. There'san entire bunch of people who cannot enjoy normal sex, and can only attain the same pleasure via this lifestyle. Is it their choice that they can't just enjoy normal sex? Is it just a fetish? Again, I think not.Yet, there are some for who it IS a choice/preference.

My point at the end of it is this - some people are hardwired to be a certain way, or even more unfortunately, are the way they are due to the circumstances of bad childhood memories. Then there are others who simply have opened their mind to the lifestyle and found it to be enjoyable. I'm sure you are aware of this, but the male G-spot is found within the anus. If a "curious" guy got hit there, he'd have the experience of a lifetime, and possibly prefer it in the future, bringing him to the gay community by choice and free-willed experimentation.

Do me a favor, if you're going to do nothing but use some childish rebuttle like your last attempt, just take your bat and ball and go home.

 Sigh, do you actually know what a straw man argument is? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html Follow the link and read up on it for me. I said sexual orientation is hard wired. You twisted that to mean that I said all fetishes were hard wired. I don't know how you can call that anything but a straw man argument. You took what I said, and made it mean something entirely different because it was easier for you to attack. That is really the perfect example of a straw man.

 And I have been into some of the weirdest shit you could have ever fucking imagined. I have also seen other people get into it. I have seen people condition themselves to get off on certain fetishes for their lovers. It is a simple bit of classical conditioning. My entire argument would be rock solid because I am willing to bet a lot of them have done the same type of conditioning, or at least seen it in action incidentally.

 You second example is fucking retarded as well. Yes, stimulating the prostate (male g-spot if you will) does indeed cause a very good feeling. That is not going to make someone fall in love with the way men look though. That is absurd. Women can hit that spot just as easily as a man can in the modern day. It is ludicrous to think that someone once had a good gay experiene and suddenly they are able to swing for the other team so to speak.

 Lemme boil this down to its essence though. How many people actually chose one way or another, and how many just end up being what they are? A metric fuckton just are what they are. Why are the peoplewho don't have a choice different from the people who do? Why can't everyone choose whether or not to be into the opposite sex? Your entire argument is on the shakiest of foundations because of that. When you can explain why only some people are hard wired you will have a much better chance of convincing me you have any idea of what you are talking about. I ask one last time, why is it only hardwired in some people?

 Forgive me for cutting out so much of your post, but I don't really have the energy to respond to all of it. I can come upwith a super long explanation that addresses the whole post more directly if you want, but one ofthe critical points is established in this paragraph so I will worry about it. Anything else is mostly just a moral argument which is rather subjective.

 Here is where I get tripped up though. You say it is entirely a choice, and then say you can't understand why it would be appealing at all. That hints at something fairly profound. Why is it that you can't understand why it is something another person would be interested in? I'd put forth that it is a genetic disposition personally, but I am curious what you would say.

I didn't say that it was entirely a choice for everyone, I just said in far more cases than what people admit to. I also don't understand why people think it's appealing to smoke or drink alcohol, or pay $1000 for "pop art" that could be done by a 2 year old, or why some people say 2 as the answer to the square root of 4, when it's actually +2 and -2, but I'd hardly rank any of those as a genetic predisposition. It's a choice they made for some reason, and I can only assume it's because they haven't actually considered all the points that I have.

What? you mean a country that protects the individual rights of its citizens.. oh wait, thats what America was founded on. So you lose? Don't like it there are plenty of other countries in the middle east I think you should visit and see what oppression is.

 Thats an interesting idea if not overly arrogant. How then do you explain homosexuality in non-sentient beings?

See, and thats why its not a straw man argument. Because you "feel" that the point of fetishes/lifestyles has no correlation to the point is different than what is. The point I made was relative to the conversation and actualyl asking you your stance on it as opposed to insisting what you said. Yet I digress there.

So you want to know why some people choose to be the way they are and some people don't get the choice. Let's take it into a different realm for a moment, something a little less "gray" and more definable-  murderers.

Im sure we can agree that there are some people just not born with what people claim as "normal" brain patterns, which lead them to be serious sociopaths. These people tend to either become murderers or plot to, making it their core focus.

Then we have the people who think its fun to go around and drag someone to death from the back of a pickup truck, for no good reason. They otherwise were normal people, no signs of a troubled past, etc. We hear the story all the time "He seemed like such a normal person". yet they chose to go out and take someone's life because they were bored or drunk or said something about their mama or whatever.

Then there's the vendetta. The person who decides to kill someone else for revenge. They could easily choose to bring a person to justice, but instead they take the law into their own hands.

All 3 are murderers, but 2 of them became murderers by their own choice, one of them was born with a hardwiring for it.

So, can you see now how some people can be hardwired, while others can come to the same place on their own, free-willed terms? Saying that all gay people are hard-wired to be gay is far too black and white for a very gray world. Not all gay people are "born gay", as I have many gay friends who would gladly back that up.

  Ok you clearly are not aware of what a straw man is. I said sexual orientation is not hard wired. You then went on to say I am claiming all fetishes are hard wired. I had never mentioned fetishes, nor were they involved in the conversation before you claimed I was saying anything about them. You created an argument for me based on things I had not said that was not directly related to my statement. Thats a straw man. And even then, I addressed your point with the same post. Try reading everything I write rather than whining about me calling you out on you bad arguments.

 Bad analogy. Murdering someone and enjoying murdering someone are completely different things. The other people when faced with the victims family and friends would likely have empathy, and feel some regret over their actions. A sociopath simply wouldn't care. Similarly you can have sex with anyone you want, but that doesn't mean you will enjoy it.