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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How the mighty have fallen?

Pristine20 on 01 November 2008
memory2zack said:
PE1&2, Xenogears and Vagrant Story are great games, that sadly never sold enough to justify their goodness. These days, multiplayer is dominant and mostl huge hardcore sellers achieve such sales thanks to their online mode.

Poor sales of such gems and the big flop of FF: Spirits Within led to the inevitable buyout and merger with Enix. Their time as huge developer/publisher is over because the kind of games they are making are not that popular enough since the late ps1 days. Otherwise these 4 games would have sold much more in the West, especially during a time when they were partners with EA.


Have you people played the snes era DQs? If you haven´t then you don´t know what you´re talking about. Enix has always been a good developer and an even better publisher and , heck, without them Chrono Trigger would have never happened.

You sure about the sales data? PE1 is listed here on vgc as a 2 mil seller at a time when games were even cheaper to develop. If you ask me, those are plenty enough to recoup it's dev costs. Single player games like SMG and DMC4 still see millions of sales. I don't care if games like these release on wii due to userbase, I just want to play gems like these. I'd buy any console they released on.

 



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

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memory2zack on 01 November 2008

DMC4 is not a huge seller though, the single player games are the minority of big sellers these days. There are exceptions though, like FF still being huge seller. GTA that started single-player incorporated multiplayer, and it´s latest iteration sold the most. Really multiplayer is the buzz these days.

I just had the impression that PE1 sold not that well compared to its quality from other people and such. But Vagrant Story 100% didn´t sold well for its quality, to the point where its actual sales are depressing outside Japan. I thinks it´s the same case with Xenogears too. Yeah, developing costs were cheaper but the retail prices were nearly half of what they are today.



Pristine20 on 01 November 2008
memory2zack said:
DMC4 is not a huge seller though, the single player games are the minority of big sellers these days. There are exceptions though, like FF still being huge seller. GTA that started single-player incorporated multiplayer, and it´s latest iteration sold the most. Really multiplayer is the buzz these days.

I just had the impression that PE1 sold not that well compared to its quality from other people and such. But Vagrant Story 100% didn´t sold well for its quality, to the point where its actual sales are depressing outside Japan. I thinks it´s the same case with Xenogears too. Yeah, developing costs were cheaper but the retail prices were nearly half of what they are today.

GTA:San Andreas is still the best selling even on ps2-only compared to combine ps360 sales of GTA IV. The multiplayer was a nice addition but I don't know anyone who bought GTA IV because of multiplayer.

VGC doesn't have sales outside JPN for VS and Xenogears but following sales correlations of games of this nature we can assume that sales outside JPN for these titles is roughly equal to sales within Japan. Judging by that yardstick, VS wasn't too spectacular but Xenogears definitely did well. Games sold for $40/50 bucks in this era...not exactly half of what they go for today.

 



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

ClaudeLv250 on 01 November 2008
zexen_lowe said:
ClaudeLv250 said:

Well that makes no sense at all.

Enix is a company that has always gotten its talent from the outside. It's not possible for them to "slow down" Square when they have nothing to slow them down with. It's also been quite awhile since Square has resembled anything that "keeps pumping one amazing game after another, reinventing itself, setting new standars with every game."

If anything Square is holding back Enix. They had a much more versatile library with awesome games like Actraiser, Soul Blazer and EVO. After the merger, you don't see anything like that anymore. All the originality has given way to FF remakes and ports, and now Square is dipping into other franchises for remakes and ports. When their lineup is intersperesed with Final Fatasy remakes, ports and spinoffs and the acting CEO is from Square, I think it's quite ludicrous to suggest that Enix is behind some diabolical plot.

I want Actraiser 3, not FFX-3.

 

No, I'm not accusing Enix of slowing them down intentionally, but seriously, the merge hasn't done Square any good (except financially, which no one of us cares). As you perfectly said, Enix's only important property of its own is DQ, which for me sucks, but if we want to be polite we can say that it's not renowned for its innovativeness. So if we compare the Square of before and the Square of now, they've lost Sakaguchi, the Xeno team (which went to create the excellent Xenosaga series), now they've lost Matsuno too. And what have they gained? A guy that I'd wish that he never made a game again like Yuuji Horii and his team, and the Tri-Ace IPs, which are great, but would be great anyways with or without Square or Enix. For me it's undeniable that Square lost a lot since say 2000 (the time by which Square was a company that "keeped pumping one amazing game after another, reinventing itself, setting new standars with every game.")

 

I don't think DQ can not be known for its innovation since it practically gave birth to the JRPG genre. It's why Japan is so rabid about it.

If the merger hurt anyone, it was Enix. All of their awesome franchises play second fiddle to the same old Square games. And all those people you mentioned leaving, left before the merger, and Matsuno was already on his way out since Kitase and Nomura are taking over. You want more people that left SE? How about Uematsu, the mana team, Kikuta, etc. Square staff has constantly shuffled, this isn't really new.

And Yuji Horii is awesome.

 

 



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hunter_alien on 01 November 2008

IMO with the fall of Sony came the fall of SE... FFXII was considered by most to be a failure, but compared with the massive amount of ports they are doing these days that game could be considered a classic in comparison.

Lately there are really few games from SE that interest me, not that there where many before, and even those only appear on my radar because they are on the PSP...

They tried with new IPs, but unfortunatly they failed, and yes, I do believe that a smaller company like Level 5 could take their place ;)



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memory2zack on 01 November 2008
Pristine20 said:

not exactly half of what they go for today.

 

Today HD console games go as much as  65 euros and psone games went for 40 euros, that´s near half price. Wikipedia says that as of March 2003 Xenogears sold 1,19 million copies worldwide, not good for a game of its class.

 



Lolcislaw on 01 November 2008

I think the problem also lies within this Generation itself, FFXIII and FXIIIv development costs will be ridicilously high, and that's the problem with the HD gaming, development costs more and takes more time, because everyone expects SE to deliver the most stunning graphics.

Well theym releasing Remake after Remake does not make me very happy, yet games like TWEWY show that they are still able of creating something new and fresh. Hopefully they will also support the Wii in the future, because that system deserve good SE games not crap like Dragon Quest Swords.



zexen_lowe on 01 November 2008
ClaudeLv250 said:
zexen_lowe said:
ClaudeLv250 said:

Well that makes no sense at all.

Enix is a company that has always gotten its talent from the outside. It's not possible for them to "slow down" Square when they have nothing to slow them down with. It's also been quite awhile since Square has resembled anything that "keeps pumping one amazing game after another, reinventing itself, setting new standars with every game."

If anything Square is holding back Enix. They had a much more versatile library with awesome games like Actraiser, Soul Blazer and EVO. After the merger, you don't see anything like that anymore. All the originality has given way to FF remakes and ports, and now Square is dipping into other franchises for remakes and ports. When their lineup is intersperesed with Final Fatasy remakes, ports and spinoffs and the acting CEO is from Square, I think it's quite ludicrous to suggest that Enix is behind some diabolical plot.

I want Actraiser 3, not FFX-3.

 

No, I'm not accusing Enix of slowing them down intentionally, but seriously, the merge hasn't done Square any good (except financially, which no one of us cares). As you perfectly said, Enix's only important property of its own is DQ, which for me sucks, but if we want to be polite we can say that it's not renowned for its innovativeness. So if we compare the Square of before and the Square of now, they've lost Sakaguchi, the Xeno team (which went to create the excellent Xenosaga series), now they've lost Matsuno too. And what have they gained? A guy that I'd wish that he never made a game again like Yuuji Horii and his team, and the Tri-Ace IPs, which are great, but would be great anyways with or without Square or Enix. For me it's undeniable that Square lost a lot since say 2000 (the time by which Square was a company that "keeped pumping one amazing game after another, reinventing itself, setting new standars with every game.")

 

I don't think DQ can not be known for its innovation since it practically gave birth to the JRPG genre. It's why Japan is so rabid about it.

If the merger hurt anyone, it was Enix. All of their awesome franchises play second fiddle to the same old Square games. And all those people you mentioned leaving, left before the merger, and Matsuno was already on his way out since Kitase and Nomura are taking over. You want more people that left SE? How about Uematsu, the mana team, Kikuta, etc. Square staff has constantly shuffled, this isn't really new.

And Yuji Horii is awesome.

 

 

Well, there's no point in arguing then since we have so polarized opinions, I think that a lot of the games that Square made can be easily put in a list of best games ever made while DQ, while it may be the first JRPG franchise, it's the one which has evolved the least, at the point that DQ VIII is the worst game I've played for the PS2, it was so stuck in the past, so archaic that it lacked any redeeming quality.

But if you though the contrary, I respect your opinion, and I see we will never, ever agree on that

 




c0rd on 01 November 2008
zexen_lowe said:

Well, there's no point in arguing then since we have so polarized opinions, I think that a lot of the games that Square made can be easily put in a list of best games ever made while DQ, while it may be the first JRPG franchise, it's the one which has evolved the least, at the point that DQ VIII is the worst game I've played for the PS2, it was so stuck in the past, so archaic that it lacked any redeeming quality.

But if you though the contrary, I respect your opinion, and I see we will never, ever agree on that

Well, just put aside DQ; my argument is it isn't relevant. Square was already going downhill before the merger. I think it's unfair to blame Enix since they weren't responsible for the exodus of old Square devs.

Squaresoft going downhill after or around the time of the Enix merge, I can agree with. Squaresoft going downhill because of the merge, is definitely something I have doubts about.



zexen_lowe on 01 November 2008
c0rd said:
zexen_lowe said:

Well, there's no point in arguing then since we have so polarized opinions, I think that a lot of the games that Square made can be easily put in a list of best games ever made while DQ, while it may be the first JRPG franchise, it's the one which has evolved the least, at the point that DQ VIII is the worst game I've played for the PS2, it was so stuck in the past, so archaic that it lacked any redeeming quality.

But if you though the contrary, I respect your opinion, and I see we will never, ever agree on that

Well, just put aside DQ; my argument is it isn't relevant. Square was already going downhill before the merger. I think it's unfair to blame Enix since they weren't responsible for the exodus of old Square devs.

Squaresoft going downhill after or around the time of the Enix merge, I can agree with. Squaresoft going downhill because of the merge, is definitely something I have doubts about.

Don't worry, I wasn't talking to you but to Claude. And I agree, Square isn't going downhill because of the merge, it's going downhill because key employees have left, and nobody could replace them, because (in my opinion) Enix brought nothing good gaming-quality-wise to Square except Tri-Ace