1) So why exactly should Wii owners buy a new HDTV when they already have an SDTV? I'm a little fuzzy on that one. Of course this is a rhetorical question and we both know that the argument "holds water" (bad phrase for electronics =P) because the Wii isn't an HD console and SDTV owners can simply hook it up to their existing sets. However on the other hand, PS3 owners who have an SDTV would have to include it in the "startup cost" based on your absurd criteria that apparently requires people "startup" with extra (ie unnecessary) purchases.

2) It's starting to become obvious that you really don't even know these games very well...exactly how many of these games have you completed or at least played?

Those who have actually played these games know that several of them have great online multiplayer as well as single player campaigns & local multiplayer, games like MKWii, Brawl, GH3, etc.. Not to mention that Wii fit is a single player game because you simply cannot connect more than one board at a time (there are only a few multiplayer activities but you can still get away with 1 Wii-mote the same as most activities in Wii Sports and Wii Play). 

So in total thats 8 of the top 10 games (9 of 11 if you count BBA) that can be played either single player, online multi-player, or local multiplayer with a single wii-remote.  What exactly was your point again? When 80% of the top 10 can be thoroughly enjoyed with only 1 or 2 Wii-Motes its pretty obvious that top 10 games don't prove any sort of need for 4 wii-motes.

Right now it sure seems like you are a PS3 owner who wanted to do some console bashing...at least thats the impression I have right now and the impression that you're reinforcing with statements that continue to get more and more ridiculous and prove more and more that you don't know what you're talking about at even a basic level of comprehension.  People in holes should stop digging.

3) Since I've just established irrefutably that the top of the Wii charts has plenty on offer for those with only a single Wii-Remote (although I'm sure you'll try to refute the objective fact anyways) we are left with the supposition that since you and people you know have been unwilling to try the Wii's single player offerings that nobody else is as well. That about right? 

Now, there is no doubt the Wii has a strong party game line-up, and I love that those people are gaming, and welcome their addition to the ranks of gamers with open arms. I know some of those folks myself but you won't see me resorting to anecdotes for the precise reason I mentioned previously (ie they're worthless as proof of anything). But that doesn't mean party games are the Wii's only genre and it doesn't even come close to meaning that you have to play it that way or that you even have to have 4 Wii-Motes.  Is it nice to have? Sure, but so is an HDTV and a 5.1 system if you're a PS3 owner.  But at the end of the day neither of those extra expenditures are strictly required for either gamer.

4) As I've already stated I'm going to leave this point alone, its just a distraction to the main issue.  There is no point in discussing the price when the purchase itself is unecessary.

5) I know where you got your charger kit from, you've said overpriced retai..err I mean Bestbuy.com many many times now.  In any case this falls under point #4 again.

Ok so what "fact" am I denying exactly?  Please be specific and provide the citation.  And while you're at it sure lets see the rest of those citations you're claiming to have.  Perhaps we can find some relevance or semblence of an actual point.

Even your statement here is an absolute refutation of itself:

How is it not logical to calculate in the cost of extra controllers when considering startup costs of a wii?

Nope nothing contradictory about that statement at all. /sarcasm  You do know the definition of extra right?  Let me refresh your memory since you've just conceded the point:

ex·tra [ek-struh]
Adjective
1.    beyond or more than what is usual, expected, or necessary; additional: an extra copy of a newspaper; an extra charge.
2.    larger or better than what is usual: an extra binding.

There are other definitions that are for usages as a noun or adverb but you've used it as an adjective here.

Now as to this part specifically.  I didn't drop the point because I was wrong I dropped it because I absolutely tore you to shreds by using a short list of games that you utterly failed to respond to in any reasonable way.  I mercifully left it alone because I was attempting not to be too belligerant...but since you've decided to press the matter let me refresh your memory:

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
No More Heroes
Super Mario Galaxy
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Super Paper Mario
Resident Evil 4
de Blob
Okami
Boom Blox
Medal of Honor
Zelda: Twighlight Princess
Trauma Center: New Blood
Trauma Center: Second Opinion
Red Steel
Red Steel 2
SC: Double Agent
MS: Anthology
Downhill Jam
Godfather: The Blackhand Edition
Prince of Persia: Rival Swords
Scarface: The World is Yours
Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros Treasure
Manhunt 2
Dewy's Adventure
Bully: Scholarship Edition
PES 2008
Blast Works
Brothers in Arms: Double Time
Mushroom Men
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Arc Rise Fantasia
Star Wars: Clone Wars
Deadly Creatures
Disaster Day of Crisis
Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles: The Chrystal Bearers
Sonic Unleashed
Kid Icarus
The Conduit
Ghostbusters
Quantum of Solace
King's Story
World of Goo
Tenchu 4
Overlord: Dark Legend
Pikmin 3
CoD 5: World at War
Rogue Trooper
Mad World
No More Heroes 2
Rygar: The Battle of Argus
Fatal Frame IV
Cursed Mountain
Sonic & the Black Knight
Legend of Spyro
Crash Bandicoot: Mind Over Mutant
Monster Lab
Kore
Star Wars Battlefront 3
Marvel Ultimate Alliance: Fusion
Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI
Sky Crawlers
Fragile
Rune Factory: Frontier
Monster Hunter 3
And literally dozens more I could have included but don't interest me as much

Or do you honestly think these 64 games are made simply to allow the company and its investors to take a loss on Wii games?  Like it or not and believe it or not, there is a large segment of the Wii audience who own a Wii to play these games.  Otherwise we are all part of some mass hallucination where major developers up and decided to create games for a market that doesn't exist.....its really not a tough concept when you think about it..or at least when you think about it honestly.

Once again you prop up a lovely strawman argument.  Clearly your ability to determine when one number plus another number is larger than a third number is not impaired (or at least I hope not) by the console you choose to game on.  What is impaired by this however, is your perspective on the Wii as a console and as a result your knowledge & judgment thereof. And of course you're correct that you're more qualified to talk about price than most of the 14 yr old fanboys who don't actually pay for their consoles but simply buying a console doesn't make you knowledgable about the console itself, which is precisely what you're trying to contend when you defend yourself against my point in this manner.

Lets reexamine this for a second folks...I questioned how much he knows about the Wii so he responds with "I know more about how expensive something is than a 14 yr old".  Thats the exchange we just had here.....I couldn't even write something this silly. So perhaps you should consider that before you respond again?  Because if you think that kind of sad dodging and squirming around the point is going to slide as a substitute for a real argument here then you're sadly mistaken.   And if you think I'm some 14 yr old kid who can't buy his own consoles, PC, & games, etc...then you're again sadly mistaken.  Although I must admit I do wish I could play my Wii 8 hours a day =P

This is turning into a 'which is the cheapest console' argument, so it needs some on-topicness.

Of course the PS3 controller is the most expensive. It has a 30 hour rechargeable battery, six axis tilt sensing (where do you think Sixaxis comes from), vibration in the DS3, and the sixaxis is extremely light. It uses Bluetooth instead of Infrared, and seven controllers can be connected at once.

It also happens to own the other two in looks.

@astro - work on your reading skills, we were discussing the top 11 best selling games on the Wii. and wii fit wouldnt count because it require expensive controller/add on.


@sqrl - You got a silly response because you are making baseless accusations. Why question my knowledge of the wii? I own one, but a new game nearly monthly, rent one just about every weekend, and read gaming websites daily. This debate is decided by if you agree that the Wii needs additional controllers or not.

1. startup costs would include everything needed to get started. thats not to hard to figure out. we are comparing new equipment not what might or might not be in your house.

2. I have played all of them but Wii Fit. And wii fit and guitar hero wouldnt count because this is a discussion about cost and they would actually support my side. (2 of top 10 wii games cost $100+) so we got SMG, zelda, mario kart, and brawl with good single player out of top 10. You tried to add wii sports and wii play , which screams desperation! also tried to add 2 $100 games.

3. you didnt establish anything. have YOU played wii sports or wii play?

and on your definition of extra, did you see that part right after the semi colon? it says simply additional. and the 2nd thru 4th controllers would be in addition to purchase of the wii console. do i need a post a definition of additional for you? you are playing word games, which screams of desperation.

defend your precious wii all you want, but whether you like it or not- its just as expensive as the other consoles. thats not a condemnation of the console, just a reality. as a matter of fact i like the console but arguing with someone who defends the deep single player experience of wii sports is pointless.

Gimme a break, I got a silly response because its the best you can muster, the whole point you're trying to make is silly.  When someone responds with a completely unrelated point as their defense THAT is desperation.  It shows that you will not engage on the point because you cannot win the point.  So you choose the alternative of avoiding it and changing the subject.

And quite clearly the Wii doesn't "need" additional controllers. I'm sure you can figure out the definition of "need" and we both know it doesn't "need" them anymore than the PS3 "needs" an HDTV or surround sound.

1) Are you trying to make my point for me?  What is "needed" is a $250 purchase of the console which comes with everything you need to utilize your wii. 

Your other statement here about existing equipment (ie TVs) is a well crafted attempt at clouding the issue, I'll give you that much.  But the fact remains that those with SDTVs can simply plug their Wii in with no concern or need to get an HDTV to enhance it.  The same is simply not true of a PS3 owner who would have a compelling reason to make that additional purchase. 

2) OK now I know you're officially over the edge of silliness, trying to tack on game prices to the price of the console startup cost is truly ridiculous.  Aside from PS3 games being more expensive than Wii games the very simple point you don't seem to understand is that there is more to the equation than price, especially with games.  The other side of this equation is value, its what you're getting for that price.  For the comparison you wheeled out you are getting far far more from what you apparently believe is some sort of minimal requirement for a Wii owner than what you get for the aproximate same price as a bare-bones PS3 owner.  The extra cash you're tacking on is actually purchasing something of value and you don't seem to be at all aware of that.

Your entire argument essentially attempts to roll all of this value up and say Wii owners must have all of these things and therefore the Wii is more expensive than the PS3.  In effect you are attempting to obfuscate the true value of a Premium Wii setup and compare it to a barebones PS3 setup in order to inflate your ego and make yourself feel better about your purchase.  You are hardly the first person to do this and you'll hardly be the last, I recognized your argument from the beginning which is precisely why I'm putting a stop to the drivil before it gets going.  Make no mistake, you're not clever, and your argument has been debunked many times before this...hell you might as well join the Flat Earth Society and skip a few steps.

3) Oh great response there.  A very intelligent "nuh uh!".  Once again you argue against pure facts and so once again I list it out for you:

So again, even with only 1 or 2 Wii-motes Wii owners have plenty of options for local multiplayer, online multiplayer, and yes even single player games.  Its not an opinion, its an objective fact, and one you keep trying to deny despite its objectivity.

On the definition, you laughably go to the only portion of the definition that could even be argued to agree with you and you call me desperate?  Now that's funny. 

I think however you may have missed class the day definitions were explained.  You don't pick and choose a usage in between the semi-colons of a definition.  The numerical listing is a usage delimeter, the semicolons are delimeting explanations of that single usage in an attempt to convey the same idea from multiple angles.  The fact is that this definition, and your use of it, is a concession of the point on your part, and instead of just saying you chose your words poorly you instead choose to fight against even more objective facts.  Amazing.

Now weren't you threatening to provide citations of how I was ignoring facts?  Where was that at?  Didn't you claim to have even more citations available?  I'm pretty sure I directly challenged you to explicitly list those and show precisely which facts I was denying and yet you haven't...and in fact it is I who have listed the facts and citations to show where you are denying facts.  This of course speaks for itself.

What I really love is how you call me desperate for including Wii Sports and Wii Play.  The reason I love this is because if we go back to your earlier statement of:

"Out of the top selling games for the Wii - the only ones I will concede have a strong single player are Mario Galaxy, Mario Kart, and Zelda. Brawl is close, so throw that in too."

And of course as you can see above if you were truly not including Wii Sports and Wii Play we then have Super Paper Mario in that top 10 list and your statement gets even more ridiculous.  So now you're either trying to move the goal posts after the fact by removing Wii Sports and Wii Play...OR you really were ignorant that SPM is a single player only game.  Both of them look bad on your part and honestly I think there is a good chance both are true.

And it goes right along with the way you ignored the list of 64 single player games (some released some upcoming) and didn't even bother to reply to the point that accompanied that list.  Instead the only point in your post that really even comes close to addressing it is this statement "arguing with someone who defends the deep single player experience of wii sports is pointless.".  Yeah I can see what you mean, arguing with someone who holds a position and supports it with facts and evidence is really pointless.  I'm glad you finally see that.

PS - @bolded, I really find it amusing that in one post you simultaneously accused me of not knowing anything about the most basic of Wii games and then also tried to imply that I was a Wii fanboy.  What makes it even funnier is that you were trying to call me desperate....come on now. People in holes should seriously stop digging.

@ your PS statement - lots of fan boys have no idea what they are talking about.

This is just stupid! Sqrl proved you that you are wrong! Wii owner ain't need 4 controllers more than PS3 owners need a HD TV, i know a lot of Wii owners and all of them have 2 controllers MAX.

falcon - sqrl ended up seeing what i was saying about the HDTV side of the argument

His post would seem to counter that claim. He seems to still be saying that it is as stupid to include the price of extra controllers for the Wii as it is to include the cost of an HDTV with the PS3. That was his first claim as well.

WTF? His post COUNTERS what you said.

OBJECTION!

At that rate, the 360's controllers would require $20 more per controller, per headset

ALSO, the PS3 supports "UP TO 7 CONTROLLERS", which would also drive up the price.

The Wii is still cheaper than the 360, unless you're going to buy an arcade, which is highly unlikely, but that would still only be $30 less... and the PS3 trails behind with $135.03 $300 difference.

Edited so the PS3 has 6 controllers, priced right thanx, izaaz101...

X360 Premium                          [$299.99]

+ 3 Controllers ($49.99 each)    [$149.97]

+ 3 Headsets ($19.99 each)      [$  59.97]

Total__________________ ___[$509.93]

X360 Arcade                             [$199.99]

+ 3 Controllers ($49.99 each)    [$149.97]

+ 3 Headsets ($19.99 each)      [$  59.97]

Total__________________ ___[$409.93]

Wii                                             [$249.99]

+ 3 Controllers ($39.99 each)    [$119.97]

+ 3 Nunchuks ($19.99 each)      [$  59.97]

Total__________________ ___[$429.93]

PS3                                            [$399.99]

+ 6 Controllers ($54.99 each)    [$329.94]

Total____________________ _[$729.93]