Saying the failure rate was 3 % then 3-5% when they know it's much higher is lying.  Repeatedly saying that the failure rate was normal when it clearly isn't is lying.  I could go on but it's basically in the same vein as that so no reason to.  While it's good they finally did the right thing there is a diminishing return to it's impact (or should be). 

I'll use a couple comparisons to illustrate what I mean.  It's good when a criminal fesses up to a crime to the police.  However, how that is received depends on whether the criminal came forward on his own, and whether he tried to lie to cops for a time.  A criminal who has to be caught, and then lies is going to find a much harsher deal than one who turns himself in and tells the truth from the get go.  Similarly, from a besieger's standpoint it is good when the besieged give up.  Again though the besieged will find a very different reception if they willing surrender at the start or if they wait as long as possible before finally being forced to surrender.  Both are good yet they cause entirely different responses.  Arguing over whether it was good for MS to do this is missing the point.

MS having to spend over $1 billion to fix the problem simply reveals the magnitude of the problem not the magnitude of MS' concern for customers (except as it relates to customers buying more 360's).  If the enormity of the error is the determinant of how much a company should be praised then essentially the bigger a company screws up (while still being to afford to fix it) the more praise they should get.  By that argument Ford should be praised above all others since back in the late 70's they recalled more cars than they sold.  That works for prodigal sons, not so much for businesses. 

They could still hide it of course, I'm not saying they couldn't.  What happened was they missed their units shipped goal by almost 25% and their sales goal by 30-35% (assuming they planned to sell most of what they planned to ship).  Also they saw an opportunity to fiddle with the numbers to make their goal of being profitable next year possible.  While I'm not certain it will increase sales they need to do something, the Elite isn't working, an early price cut would ruin their chances of being profitable (something they may still sacrifice), and as more people buy 360's, and as those already bought age, the RRoD issue is becoming ever bigger.  The cost-benefit analysis of continuing to hide it changed so they decided to stop hiding it.

Again, it is good when a company owns up to a mistake.  I'm just saying it's something we should expect them to do when the error is realized not when lying and obfuscating no longer carries a net benefit.  I know companies are there to make money and I know doing this can at times work, but if we don't expect more of companies then why should they expect more of themselves?

Lastly, I expected to be smothered but by cuteness.  I know I haven't been the cutest but then it's not my posting signature .

I think the reason they couldn't continue to hide it is because the evidence had moved beyond anecdotal.  The two recent reports from EB Games and BBY, and the report of the UK firm denying repairs were both pretty damaging.  At some point, there is just too much garbage to sweep under the rug.

Also, I would suggest that, while MS's PR is certainly guilty of misdirection to save face, they did extend their original warranty to 1 year from 90 days, so it's not like they were simply doing nothing.  Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that they were able to fix the root cause of the problem in that time.

What Microsoft really needs to do next is give a public report detailing the primary cause of the RROD, and the measures they are taking to fix the problem to reassure potential customers that they've got it.

I think you make a good point about the lying. Disingenuous, at best.

However, I still disagree that they had to come out and confess, and I think this is the focal point of disagreement. There was certainly a lot of pressure to do something about this, but there has been pressure for some time, and that pressure has simply been increasing. It's a matter of degree, and nothing has really changed. Six months ago, there was some pressure,  three months ago, more, and today, even more than that. 

But again, that's simply a difference of degree, not a fundamental shift. Microsoft managed to keep lying even in the face of a lot of pressure -- there isn't any obvious reason why they couldn't keep lying under a whole lot of pressure.

 That's possible, and I don't think it's an illegitimate argument. But as I just responded to Alb, I think that this is really only a difference of degree, not a wholesale change. Yes, there is more pressure now than there was three months ago. But Microsoft could do precisely what the RIAA is doing right now; screwing its customers to the bitter end, and suing them over and over in a desperate attempt to scrape every last bit of cash they can out of them, before they go under.

It's possible to keep lying and cheating until the bitter end, but Microsoft didn't. In fact, they offered a significant, billion dollar benefit to their customers. Their failures absolutely deserve to be condemned, but their response to those failures deserves praise.  

:)

I will argue to the end if I feel strongly about an issue, but I will try to do so in a respectful manner. My signature (and avatar) is cosmetic, certainly, but it's intended to represent an adherence to kindness even in argumentation. Many people on these boards (And any gaming board) tend to take these discussions incredibly seriously; while I certainly hold to my positions, I don't think it's quite as big a deal as some others seem to believe.

And by the way, Alb, we agree about, oh 95 percent of the time. I'm an unabashed Wii fan, but I will stick up for Sony and/or Microsoft when I feel they've done something right. In fact, I may even be more enthusiastic when defending MS/Sony, simply to give myself the impression that I'm philosophically balanced. I'm fooling myself, but I do it anyway.

Hehe. Now the best system in history has the best warranty in history :)

Either way, I feel that MS honestly believes it has fixed the RROD issues to the point they can extend the warranty on RROD to 3 years. Theres NO way they'd do this if they knew fail rates were going to continously be higher. We've already seen the new 360 intercoolers built in on the refurbs and new units. I assume they feel this is one of the better (or best solutions) other than 65nm.

IMO, a console redesign would be better, and probably cheaper, but oh well.

WTG microsoft. Front page on Yahoo. Hopefully the price drop is also announced since Sony is going to drop the price to a very competitive $500.

That's just it. I don't think MS knew how to fix the problem for quite some time.

It's no coincidence that this warranty extension hits the same time people are receiving refurbs with a different cooling system. MS couldn't extend the warranty until they had a viable working solution that could be fixed. Now, instead of opening a revolving door of 360s that will RRoD, they're fixing the units and putting them back into peoples' homes.

So if you get a red ring and send your xbox to microsoft are they just going to send you a refurb'ed one that works, but doesn't solve the heating issue, or are they actually fixing the problem and sending you one that won't break again?

A 3 year extended warranty is nice, but if your xbox breaks and they send you another one that will break again, what's the point?

Techmo -

MS has fixed, or atleast nearly fixed the problem. They've actually modified the refurb/new units with an entirely new/extra heatsink that should/will fix the problems.

IMO, There is NO WAY MS would issue this huge statement and do all of this if the systems were still red-ringing from the factory with these new units....It'd be counter productive. They've found a solution, now they're willing to do what's needed to make it more reliable.

Now, may I ask, of those arguing that MS is stupid, dumb, unreliable, ect. How many of you actually own a Xbox 360?

this news is even on the dutch dinernews and in the duthc frontpage that MS is saving 1 billion $ (870 million euro's) to expand the warranty. but its only on the red ring problem.