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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Article: Hating on the casuals

Hawk on 10 July 2008

Ok, lets see, let me paraphrase what I heard:

Whaaa whaaa whaaa whaaaa whaa I am scared whaaaa whaaaa whaa and jealous whaaa whaaa whaaa and very bitter whaaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaaa

Whaaa I like whining whaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa and bitching whaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa.

Whaaaaa I'm elitist and narrow-minded and selfish whaaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaa whaaa

I'm just a bitter old man who hates everyone around him whaaa whaaa whaaaa whaaa whaaaa whaa

So, did I miss anything? I think that's pretty much what I got from it.



Tag: Hawk - Reluctant Dark Messiah (provided by fkusumot)

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Kasz216 on 10 July 2008
bouzane said:
HappySqurriel said:
bouzane said:
In 1998 we got Starcraft, Unreal, Half-Life, Fallout 2, Grim Fandango, Starsiege: Tribes, Thief: The Dark Project, Metal Gear Solid, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Radiant Silvergun, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and many others. I don't think I've seen that many quality releases in a single year at any point this console generation or even the last console generation. I think that hardcore gaming is in a decline because almost all of the best games released now-a-days are merely uninspired sequels.

 

2004 saw the release of Half-Life 2, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Halo 2, Unreal Tournament 2004, Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorow, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, World of Warcraft, Metal Gear Solid 3, Far Cry, Doom 3 and many more games ...

Every few years (typically a middle year in a console generation) there seems to be a clustering effect where enough good games are delayed from previous years, and the good games expected for that year are released on schedule, and the year seems like an amazing celebration of gaming. Every time it happens it seems a little smaller and less special than the time before it partially because gamers are getting spoiled by the high quality of most games, and partially because these games seem to be spread over more and more platforms (If there were 4 amazing exclusives released for the PC, XBox 360, PS3, PSP, Wii and Nintendo DS this year how may would the typical gamer have access to?).

 

Perhaps you are correct about it being anomalous or the fact that there are more gaming platforms. However, I have to point out the fact that you listed almost no original titles. Most quality hardcore games are merely sequels now and that's not a good thing for people who have been gaming for a long time. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

That's hardcore gamings fault itself.   Most hardcore games need awesome HD graphics to succeed.  Awesome HD graphics cost LOTS of money.  Hence they are VERY risky, one or two bombs can take down any company that isn't a juggernaut.  Hence you need to minimize risk... by doing things like sequels.

Still.  Lots of great new hardcore games coming out I can think of.  Prototype, Imfamous and Borderlands being the most promising.



Hawk on 10 July 2008
Pristine20 said:
LNRT said:
There are some very well constructed counter arguments in here. I agree with the people here. This guy needs to get off his high horse and enjoy his games or did the casual games destroy GTA4, MGS4, and Halo 3 so he is no longer able to play his "hardcore" games.

 

I think his point is that there would be no more innovation on the "hardcore" front, only established franchises would remain. No more Vagrant Storys or Xenogears popping out of the blue. Only FF will remain. Get the picture?

::shakes head:: I still don't understand all the whinning. I really have never been shown how "hardcore" games are suffering.  Personally, I've enjoyed more "hardcore" games than ever before.  They are not disappearing, or even slowing down.

But people are all whinning that all these games are coming out that they don't like. So what? Stick to your games, and don't buy the games you don't like. Problem solved.



Tag: Hawk - Reluctant Dark Messiah (provided by fkusumot)

Hawk on 10 July 2008
Grampy said:
HappySqurriel said:

Someone want to get the Waahhhmbulance ...

So far this year "Hard-Core" gamers have only received Grand Theft Auto 4, Metal Gear Solid 4, Mass Effect, Burnout Paradise, Grid, Battlefield: Bad Company, Devil May Cry 4, Condemned 2, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2, Age of Conana: Hyborian Adventures, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, Lost Odyssey, Frontlines: Fuel of War, Pirates of the Burning Sea, The Club, Culdcept SAGA, and Assult Heroes 2 for HD consoles or the PC. Complaining that some other group gets attention is just pathetic.

 

Thanks for saying that for me.

It is pathetic that someone can take the tremendous number of hardcore games, two out of three consoles and feel sorry for themselves. What a frigging crybaby. I'm sorry but this is one Pity Party that I'm not coming to. Jeez, some people; the hard core gamer never had it so good. Sorry that someone actually made a console and a few games that weren't dedicated just to you and leaving out completely those who happen to lack the apptitude, attitude or time to waste learning an overly complex controller and control system.

I'm old enough to be bitter, pissed off and whine about things too, but I try to save it for important things like what the current government has done to our nation, our economy, our environment and our Constitutional Rights: not the fact that there are a few games out there that weren't written just for me.

Get a grip for cripes sake!

 

Completely agree with you guys



Tag: Hawk - Reluctant Dark Messiah (provided by fkusumot)

Alby_da_Wolf on 10 July 2008

Nice article, he's right when he says that the real line should be between good and crappy games, but he doesn't realize that there is a new market with new gamers: sooner or later a part of them will evolve, get tired of playing only simplistic games and will ask for more complex ones, and voilà, a new generation of "hardcore" gamers, perhaps quite different from the current one, will be born, creating as ever a request for hardcore games. And an even greater part of them will remain casual, but will learn to tell good from crap, so there will always be a market for good quality casual games too.
And there will always be a minority, alas quite consistent, of morons and/or tasteless people that will eagerly eat whatever colourful shit is proposed to them. Big Brothe(r|l) has a big audience share, but its audience is still a minority of population, we must live with them, unless we prefer to go postal and strafe them
But wait, this always happened, even in the era of hardcore dominance, good titles have always been a minority of pearls users had to learn to distinguish from ubiquitous dung. Nihil sub sole novi.



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soccerdrew17 on 10 July 2008
sc94597 said:
soccerdrew17 said:
sc94597 said:
soccerdrew17 said:
i have to completely agree with him.

there are two kinds of casual games: shit and good. despite what people think, guitar hero/rock band is not a hardcore game. its a casual game, that is actually made well. nintendo games are almost all casual (except zelda, metroid, and smash,fire emblem, mario kart(both), earthbound/mother, donkey kong, star fox,golden sun, pokemon(both),Chibi Robo,F-Zero,Advance Wars, Battalion Wars,Wario(main series),Kid Icarus, Kirby, Pikmin and many many many more), but they are almost always made well.

artistic games have often sold like crap, but never before have crap games sold like they are now.

So you were saying nintendo games are all casual except for Mario, Metroid , and Zelda?

 

 

lets compare the amount of casual to hardcore games released by nintendo. then refute my statement.

and of those hardcore which have released recently how many are high profile? (pokemon and mario kart are casual, whether u like it or not)

 

*casual is not a bad thing. a bad game is a bad thing.

NO pokemon and mario kart target both audiences. You see this because almost every Core nintendo fan on this site has mario kart, and there are countless threads on this. Pokemon is very popular and just look at the hits on this site.

ALright here is your list since you wanted it.

Super Mario Galxay-Targets Mostly Core, but also appeals to casuals.

Metroid Prime 3- Core

Super Smash Bros Brawl- Both but mostly Core

LoZ:Tp- Core

Mario Kart WIi- Both

Wii Play-Casual

Wii Fit- Casual

Wii Sports- Both, but mostly casual

MP8- Casual

Mario Strikers Charged- Both

Link's Crossbow Training- BOth

Super Paper Mario- Same as smg Core

Big Brain Academy- Casual

Pokemon Battle Revolution- Both, but mostly casual in this case.

Endless Ocean- Casual, but has some core following.

Fire Emblem- Core(Probably the most core this gen if you count core as difficult)

Wario Ware Smooth Moves- Casual

Excite Truck- Both, but I would say mostly core.

Battalion Wars 2- Core

DK: Barrel Blast- Casual

Mario Super SLuggers- Both

Wario Land- Core

Disaster Day of Crisis- Core

Casual-9

Core-10

Both-4

Now that is about equal right?

dont know ds well, so i cant comment on it.

galaxy, strikers, excite truck, sluggers, kart are all casual.  casual is not how well it goes with its fans, but how gameplay is.  those have casual gameplay.  i would assume link's crossbow is casual but i don't know.  and no core does not mean difficult.  it means it takes more than just a pick up and play to have fun, which nearly all srpg's require.

with wario land and diaster day of crisis not out (a game not released can't count), the new score:

casual-14

core-6

both-possibly one, due to me not knowing that game.

now that is about equal right?



my pillars of gaming: kh, naughty dog, insomniac, ssb, gow, ff

i officially boycott boycotts.  crap.

HappySqurriel on 10 July 2008

As I've said before, the terms "Hard-Core" and "Casual" are imprecise and flawed and people defining Super Mario Galaxy (a game in one of the oldest and best received series across all gamers) demostrates this more than anything else.

There are a lot of reasons why games perform well on the Wii or any platform and it is far more diverse than a simple binary classification. The following classifications are not mutually exclusive and express the motivating factors for people to buy some games:

  • Single Player
  • Local Multiplayer (social gamer)
  • Online Multiplayer
  • Story Driven
  • Gameplay driven
  • Presentation driven (Graphics Whore)
  • Mainstream
  • Indie
  • "Mature"
  • Accessable (Kiddie)
  • Conventional
  • Unconventional (Blue-Ocean)

There are dozens of other ways you can classify games, and you don't have to define games as "Hard-Core: Everything I like, Casual: Everything I don't like"

The titles that have been the most successful on the Wii so far are Local Multiplayer - Gameplay Driven - Mainstream - Accessable games; and Nintendo has seen a lot of success from their Single Player - Mainstream - Conventional games.

 



noname2200 on 10 July 2008
soccerdrew17 said:

soccerdrew17 said:

soccerdrew17 said:
*Arbitary categorization of games*

*Obvious reply*

*Rhetorical question based on arbitary criteria*

*Counter arbitrary list*

 

*Arbitrary disagreement with arbitrary list*

 

I don't mean to belittle your discussion, guys, but this is a perfect example of why the whole "core" and "casual" distinction is utter bull. You can't get more than a half-dozen people to fully agree on what distinguishes one type of game or the other. In fact, games have a tendency to switch category depending on what's most convenient to the poster (prime example, GTA. Where three was a casual game, it is now a hardcore one). I know neither of you are going to heed this, but considering how shifting and meaningless the line is, why are you guys even bothering? Nintendo games are generally fun in most people's opinion, and not in a few others. It has nothing to do with the games being "core" or "casual."



soccerdrew17 on 10 July 2008
noname2200 said:
soccerdrew17 said:

soccerdrew17 said:

soccerdrew17 said:
*Arbitary categorization of games*

*Obvious reply*

*Rhetorical question based on arbitary criteria*

*Counter arbitrary list*

 

*Arbitrary disagreement with arbitrary list*

 

I don't mean to belittle your discussion, guys, but this is a perfect example of why the whole "core" and "casual" distinction is utter bull. You can't get more than a half-dozen people to fully agree on what distinguishes one type of game or the other. In fact, games have a tendency to switch category depending on what's most convenient to the poster (prime example, GTA. Where three was a casual game, it is now a hardcore one). I know neither of you are going to heed this, but considering how shifting and meaningless the line is, why are you guys even bothering? Nintendo games are generally fun in most people's opinion, and not in a few others. It has nothing to do with the games being "core" or "casual."

 

i agree that many people are attacking it because of abirtary things, but they don't realize what they are attacking.

most people are not attacking casual games, but rushed games aimed at the casual market.  many games that appeal to the hardcore market are not in themselves hardcore games. 

GTA is not a hardcore game.  what do most people do in that game?  what ever the heck they feel like.  they just run around and figure out what they want to do.  that is a very casual idea, but was first latched onto by the hardcore market.  the reason people feel it is hardcore is because it is extremely polished for what it is and there is just so much to do.  those two things just make it a good game, not a hardcore game.

guitar hero is also not hardcore.  it is a rythm game, which has absolutely nothing that is situational.  the idea entirety of the game is casual, except that it was designed to have that appeal to what is considered the hardcore market.  they put in rock/metal music with a visual style made to appeal to metal heads/hard rockers.

nintendo has had a general philosphy of at least have casual aspects in their games.  where does nintendo get most of their console sales?  the casuals (yes, including last gen).  who's games do those people play?  nintendo's.  its not a surprise when nintendo makes quality games aimed at the casual market.



my pillars of gaming: kh, naughty dog, insomniac, ssb, gow, ff

i officially boycott boycotts.  crap.