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Forums - General - Is there a god?

Crono said:
 

No, it would just be relegated soley to its roll as a record of history. Yes, history is written by the winners, but Biblical history basically stops it record 50 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, therefore it has nothing to do with how well christianity is surviving. Its ancient history i'm talking about: pre roman conquest of the region and earlier, even back to the time of Abraham, historical facts and locations spoken of in the Bible have been verified in the real world (such as the locations of Sodom and Gamorrah)


 it's the stories that who knows how to verify.  anyway, i'm gonna keep out of this... just couldn't control myself for a sec there.



the Wii is an epidemic.

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Thats exactly what I'm saying though. Just as Jesus said to Nicodemus: If we find that we can trust the Bible when it comes to earthly verifiable things, should we then not be able to extend the benefit of the doubt when it speaks on spiritual things?



Witty signature here...

Wii: 14 million by January  I sold myself short

360: 13 million by January I sold microsoft short, but not as bad as Nintendo.

PS3: 6 million by January. If it approaches 8 mil i'll eat crow  Mnn Crow is yummy.

With these results, I've determined that I suck at long term predictions, and will not long term predict anything ever again. Thus spaketh Crono.

Jesus is God



我是广州人

Yes.



I'm going to present some logic as to why the existance of living things provides some proof that there is a god...

#1: When an archaeologist discovers a simple stack of bricks layed out in a pattern to form a wall, the scientific consensus is that intelligent life (namely human) created it. This is due to the fact that natural forces lead to chaos, not order. No scientist would argue that a brick wall (simple) or a house (complex) came from anything other than an intelligent being building it, as such an assumption would go against all the laws of nature.

#2: When scientists turn their radio telescopes to outer space, they are looking for any type of repeating, logical radio code to PROVE that their is intelligent life in outer space. Any simple code would be viewed by the scientific community as fairly solid proof of intelligent life. This is again due to the fact that the universe produces chaos and unpredictability by definition (without outside intervention).

All living things are made up of cells, the blueprint of which are DNA and RNA. Even the most simple cells have a very complex 'code' stored in the DNA, which is stored in the nucleus, that is then interpreted by the RNA to actually create the cells. So if it is impossible in science to have something as simple as a brick wall or a basic radio code created by anything other than intelligence, how is it that life, which is far more complicated than either of these examples, can be created without intelligent intervention? Because scientists don't want to believe in anything they can't explain, and they can't explain God so they've explained him away instead.

 



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@DuncanMcneal 
1. Because someone ate an apple? That's why people I love die. I think you shouldn't take your mythology and let it pertain to the real world, because it sounds crazy to a normal person.
(Christianity is the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie that is his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in all humanity because a rib-woman was convinced to eat from a magical tree by an infinitely sadistic being disguised as a talking snake with legs. )
2. There is no difference - that is something you don't understand. Nowhere does it say - ignore the rules about slavery - but keep the rules about homosexuality. Ignore the rules about rape - but keep the ones about marriage. (All of those rules are morally wrong though..) In fact, Jesus says that we must follow all of the rules in the Old Testament. This means every rebellious teenager would be stoned to death, anyone who works on sunday is dead, anyone who speaks out against god is dead, and it is never forgived. Either you didn't read that, or you're dismissing it as mere metaphor, and that is just a copout.
3. So christians took no part in the crusades? No part in the various christian inquisitions? If you don't think these things were done by christians... you may need to study history - and study your christianity again - it is certainly a bold thing to say that accepted history is false and that things in the bible are false - just because you can claim the people who did these things aren't christians, and the bible is meant to be a metaphor. I'll tell you what, these "fake christians" make up the largest portion of people who are christians.
4. I didn't say that a scientist rapes a boy - I said that doctorS save liveS and priestS (who are christians or aren't christians in your opinion? I forget) rape boyS (I said that, because these are things that really happened it may be hard to figure out the difference for a christian). If a scientist raped a boy, the scientists wouldn't get together and move him to another place and hope he didn't do it again - they would treat him like any other person. When christian priests DID rape boys in the US - they were moved (by more christians) to other parts of the us - and treated as though they wouldn't do it again they did do it again, and doctors keep saving more lives.
5. You're not really being fair to me, I'm following history, and you're following the bible - in which over 3/5 of the world knows was written by corrupt tribes (the ones who managed to survive and change the bible) and accepted by constantine 300 years later - as the word of god.
Again, these evil, disturbing things, are in YOUR book. It is your duty to compare at all times what you think with what can be proved.
In the immortal words of Douglas Adams -
If somebody thinks they're a hedgehog, presumably you just give 'em a mirror and a few pictures of hedgehogs and tell them to sort it out for themselves.
1. Nope. Not about the apple. It's about the act of being separated from god due to disobedience. God wanted people to be friends with him, so he gave them a choice (there's no such thing as forced friendship). He could've said 'don't walk in circles' and it would have been the same thing. It was about trust, they trusted the serpant (maybe figurative? don't know) instead of god and made their choice.
2. Big difference... old and new covanant (testament). One was made to show mankind they couldn't do it on their own, the next was made in order to give mankind a way through a man (jesus) who was perfect.
3. Yes, people who called themselves christians did horrible things, you can't equate these with God. You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater so to speak.
4. Once again, you can't throw out a whole movement because of the actions of a few twisted individuals.
5. Evil, disturbing things happen throughout every book that tells the history of everything. The things you are talking about take place in the OLD testament, there is a difference.


Timmah! said:

I'm going to present some logic as to why the existance of living things provides some proof that there is a god...

#1: When an archaeologist discovers a simple stack of bricks layed out in a pattern to form a wall, the scientific consensus is that intelligent life (namely human) created it. This is due to the fact that natural forces lead to chaos, not order. No scientist would argue that a brick wall (simple) or a house (complex) came from anything other than an intelligent being building it, as such an assumption would go against all the laws of nature.

#2: When scientists turn their radio telescopes to outer space, they are looking for any type of repeating, logical radio code to PROVE that their is intelligent life in outer space. Any simple code would be viewed by the scientific community as fairly solid proof of intelligent life. This is again due to the fact that the universe produces chaos and unpredictability by definition (without outside intervention).

All living things are made up of cells, the blueprint of which are DNA and RNA. Even the most simple cells have a very complex 'code' stored in the DNA, which is stored in the nucleus, that is then interpreted by the RNA to actually create the cells. So if it is impossible in science to have something as simple as a brick wall or a basic radio code created by anything other than intelligence, how is it that life, which is far more complicated than either of these examples, can be created without intelligent intervention? Because scientists don't want to believe in anything they can't explain, and they can't explain God so they've explained him away instead.

 


A high level of complexity doesn't necessarily mean that "intelligence" created it.

Take bacteria for example, there are complex mutations in some bacteria that have happened naturally.  Some of these mutations can be seen in the form of new untreatable infectious diseases (to go along with the untreatable infectious diseases caused by mutations created by antibiotics, etc). 

Another example of something complex not having an "intelligence" behind it is the Earth's climate system.  Some of the most powerful supercomputers in the World are involved in studying it even though there doesn't seem to be an "intelligence" that created it.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that complexity isn't necessarily evidence of an "intelligence" behind it.

 



That's a good point, Legend, but it doesn't rule out intelligence either.

I could argue that if God created the universe, then of course the Earth's climate would be complex, and that would also imply design.

Objectively speaking, it is what it is. Depending on how you look at the evidence, you can make a conclusion one way or the other.



Legend11 said:
Timmah! said:

I'm going to present some logic as to why the existance of living things provides some proof that there is a god...

#1: When an archaeologist discovers a simple stack of bricks layed out in a pattern to form a wall, the scientific consensus is that intelligent life (namely human) created it. This is due to the fact that natural forces lead to chaos, not order. No scientist would argue that a brick wall (simple) or a house (complex) came from anything other than an intelligent being building it, as such an assumption would go against all the laws of nature.

#2: When scientists turn their radio telescopes to outer space, they are looking for any type of repeating, logical radio code to PROVE that their is intelligent life in outer space. Any simple code would be viewed by the scientific community as fairly solid proof of intelligent life. This is again due to the fact that the universe produces chaos and unpredictability by definition (without outside intervention).

All living things are made up of cells, the blueprint of which are DNA and RNA. Even the most simple cells have a very complex 'code' stored in the DNA, which is stored in the nucleus, that is then interpreted by the RNA to actually create the cells. So if it is impossible in science to have something as simple as a brick wall or a basic radio code created by anything other than intelligence, how is it that life, which is far more complicated than either of these examples, can be created without intelligent intervention? Because scientists don't want to believe in anything they can't explain, and they can't explain God so they've explained him away instead.

 


A high level of complexity doesn't necessarily mean that "intelligence" created it.

Take bacteria for example, there are complex mutations in some bacteria that have happened naturally.  Some of these mutations can be seen in the form of new untreatable infectious diseases (to go along with the untreatable infectious diseases caused by mutations created by antibiotics, etc). 

Another example of something complex not having an "intelligence" behind it is the Earth's climate system.  Some of the most powerful supercomputers in the World are involved in studying it even though there doesn't seem to be an "intelligence" that created it.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that complexity isn't necessarily evidence of an "intelligence" behind it.

 


No, but a high level of ORDERLY complexity does. That's my point. The universe is complex, but generally chaotic. The climate system of the earth is incredibly complex, but there's also a very high level of chaos and unpredictability associated with it. Just ask any weatherman.

I said nothing about mutations. Survival of the fittest is something that is very common. This is called Micro-evolution, or adaptions & changes within a species. This is a well documented and tested phenomenon. The point is not that living things can't undergo some changes from generation to generation, but that life cannot spontaneously form from a puddle of goo- that's what I'm saying.

Edit: The earth's ecosystem & climate are complex and chaotic, but there is also some order to it that points to intelligence. The moon is the exact size and distance from the earth to create the tides, keeping the oceans clean. Without that, life wouldn't be possible. The combination of temperature, the correct mix of gasses, the correct amount of particles in the air to create clouds, tilt of the earth to create seasons, etc all work together to form a perfect 'bubble' for life in a very inhospitable universe. The chance of one of these factors being correct by natural means alone isn't that far fetched- it's when you calculate the probability that ALL of them would be so exact in ONE place that chance begins to look very unlikely.



Another point... Even the scientists that deny God and believe that we came from a puddle of goo unknowingly give him credit. Just watch any documentary on the topic of nature. When they begin to discuss specific features of plants or animals that provide a specific function, count how many times they use the word 'design'. They'll say that a shark has a hydrodynamic shape 'designed' for speed, or that a hawk's eyes are 'designed' to help it see long distances at high speeds. The problem with this is that the word 'design' always implies a designer, so they are contradicting themselves. Natural causes can't 'design' anything because they have no intelligence.

Here are some definitions of Design:

1.

to prepare the preliminary sketch or the plans for (a work to be executed), esp. to plan the form and structure of: to design a new bridge.
2.to plan and fashion artistically or skillfully.
3.to intend for a definite purpose: a scholarship designed for foreign students.
4.to form or conceive in the mind; contrive; plan: The prisoner designed an intricate escape.
5.to assign in thought or intention; purpose: He designed to be a doctor.

Taken from dictionary.com

It's like it says in Psalm 19:1

The heavens declare the glory of God;
       the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

The intracate detail of nature around us screams design. To me, it is completely illogical to believe that something as intricate as human DNA, or even the DNA of a single-celled amoeba, could statistically EVER happen by chance. That's not to say I think anyone who doesn't believe in God is an idiot, I won't ever resort to name calling. I just disagree with the assertion that what we see around us could come about without intelligent intervention.