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Forums - General - Another math question

Markus250 said:
Kytiara said:

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way txags911.

edit: I guess I should extrapolate a little.

 Take x to equal 0.9999

x = 0.9999
10x = 9.999
10x - x = 9.999 - 0.9999 = 8.9991
9x = 8.9991
x = 0.9999

You can then continue adding 9's towards infinity and it never changes.  What you are implying is as x nears infinity, the number tends towards 1 which is true, however it never reaches 1, just gets really really close.


You forgot that it isn't 9.9999, it's 9.9999.... so your equation means nothing


Actually I didn't forget anything.  If you read the bottom paragraph, what I am actually saying is that you can use that equation as an example, and the same principle holds for every extra 9 you add on the back.  If 0.9 != 1 and 0.99 != 1, then 0.9999... != 1 either, it only gets really really close. 

So what I am saying is 0.999... != 1, but the LIMIT of 0.999..... is 1 as it approaches infinity, two completely different things.

As for that Dr Math site, his "proof"  showed a limit, not equality. 

edit: I'm not implying that the Dr Math guy is wrong, I'm just saying that the answer is more complicated than saying 0.999... = 1. 



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Wow, I thought with something like this people would just stop arguing when there's a simple RIGHT or WRONG answer.  It's not a debate.  It's a matter of knowledge. 

Here's the wikipedia link, for those wanting proofs at every conceiveable mathematical sophistication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_0.999..._equals_1

I guess I also learned something: (from the wiki page) arguing about 0.999... is a popular sport.  Guess I got sucked into it! 

 



the Wii is an epidemic.

The wiki page just re-inforces what I meant at the very end of my last post. The answer is much more complicated than just saying 0.999... = 1, the key being the concept of limits



There. This is the sad reality!

Kytiara said:
The wiki page just re-inforces what I meant at the very end of my last post. The answer is much more complicated than just saying 0.999... = 1, the key being the concept of limits

 Kind of true.

1)  0.999...  is a notation.  It, by definition, MEANS there's an infinite number of "9"s after the decimal point.

2)  Once you accept that, 0.999... = 1.  There is a gazillion proofs out there, the wiki page has a good collection of them.

On the concept of "infinity": it is by no means an intuitive concept.  The ancient Greeks for instance could not come to grips with it--Zeno's paradox, for instance.

As to 0.999... :  If you know "real analysis", or "analysis" for short, you'd know the history of it.  It took a few centuries and some very brilliant mathematicians to lay out the foundations!  It shouldn't be a surprise that without formal training people would be arguing over it over and over and over ...

 

P.S.  Amount of "formal training": for the typical math student, he/she gets some exposure to real analysis in high school calculus.  In college, typically there are 4 semesters of calculus (AP Calculus BC can place you out of the first 2 semesters typically, but it depends on the curriculum).  A solid Real analysis is typically a junior/senior level course (2 semesters), a core requisite for math majors.  However, most PhD level physical scientists and engineers are highly recommended to have a solid understanding of it.

 



the Wii is an epidemic.

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.999...=1 I am a mathematician and this thread fails.



yoda31419 said:
I've heard about these strange threads popping up all around the internet with people claiming the same (false) idea about infinite decimal representations of numbers. Allow me to use another explanation that will (hopefully) clear up where the confusion sets in for the laymen. Let me first say that .999... is not a decimal representation of a number at all. The hint as to why it's not? Those dots: "..." They're not numbers! A decimal representation of a number has a finite number of digits chosen from the set {0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9} with the addition of a single "." somewhere in the number (the "." is implied at the end if unwritten). So, the question is, who started to perpetrate these lies and deceits to our children? (Is our children learning?) Well, the answer if simple: mathematicians lie. All the time. Well, almost always. They tell lies because normal people (much less children) do not have the years of conditioning to understand the true reasons behind whatever "cool" fact they're trying to talk about. Some of the lying even extends up until collegiate levels of mathematics learning! Usually, once you hit the last year of your undergraduate mathematics degree, your professors stop lying about most of the things they say in the classroom. So, anyway, we're not able to compare ".999..." with "1" visually at all, because we aren't using the same representations for the numbers. One is using a decimal representation (1) and the other is using a lie that mathematicians tell the public to keep the truth at bay! I'm glad there were some on this forum to set the facts straight, entroper.
as an engineer, there is a huge difference between 4 and 4.

 



Help! I'm stuck in a forum signature!

Dolla Dolla said:
There. This is the sad reality!

This is basically an extension of the 1/3 argument.  It works for other repeating decimals, as well.

1/7 = 0.142857142857...
6/7 = 0.857142857142...
7/7 = 0.999999999999...



Don't forget, there could have been a 0 at the end of the infinite number of 0s before it. But no, there is a 1 at the end of the infinite amount of 0s before it. If 0.999... is the same as 1, then 0.999...8 is the same as 0.999..., then 0.999...7 is the same as 0.999...6... and eventually, 0.45312454...54 would be the same as 0.45454...53, which would also mean that 0.45312454...53 would be the same as 1. So basically, all numbers would be exactly the same. Therefore, the theory is flawed. It's hard to comprehend, but that 1 still exists in that number. Until we can fully understand the meaning if "infinite," this question will always remain unclear to some, but I believe the correct answer is, "No, it is not the same."



I wish all posts in the forum could have as much thought as the posts in these math question threads. This question has only opened more theories. If we take an infinite number, let's say, 39485734985.349857394858794058785... And the numbers kept going to infinite, yet all the numbers were mixed up (unlike 0.999... Where all the numbers before the decimal are "9"), at what point do the numbers not exist? The fact is, they all exist. Same with the 0.00...1. Does the 1 not exist because there is an infinite amount of 0s after it? No, it does exist. Our minds just cannot comprehend "infinite." 0.999... does not equal 1.