Basically all I can see there is that there are so many guns in the USA in the wrong peoples hands already, that you require them in order to protect yourself from this madness that has already happened. If there weren't as many in the first place everyone would be better off, but it's not going to happen unfortunately unless some incredibly major changes came about. About as likely as America pulling off a legal war under Bush.

When you're put in a situation where everyone has, or at least is expected to have, a firearm (and most likely carries it with them all the time, loaded), you find yourself in a situation where everyone else has power over your life. While this might discourage people from engaging impulsively in criminal activity, it also sows paranoia: A simple misfire from someones gun might kill you at anytime. Someone with a latent mental condition might snap and gun down dozens of people in an instant. A gun still won't protect you from a knife in the back. If guns are readily available, its incredibly easy to make stupid mistakes with them ie. if you're intoxicated, have a volatile nature, etc.

And there's also the classic "Violence breeds violence breeds violence" - argument.  

@Ninjabreadman: You know, you can leave your political trolling at the door... same with nintendo trolling... I won't stop you from expressing your trolling views, but for God's sake, speak with reason and not with vitriol.

@Mise: see cwbys21 post above.

 There are a million ways to kill someone without using handguns. Plus according to this graph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Intlhomrate.svg), most murders committed in US do not involve firearms anyway. And you can't really establish a causal link between gun control and increases in homicide rates anywhere anyway, so your argument is pretty much shot (pun intended). 

When you replace "follow the laws or be punished" with "follow the laws or die", human life becomes significantly less meaningful, and society has a huge problem in its hands, both with its values and in reality. 

You are not arguing against an opinion here... These are hard facts. I also have a small rule about Wikipedia... It isn't a valid source in a debate. Outside of real discussion it is fine, but here... It won't pass muster.

And you say that

While Wikipedia itself may not be valid, its sources usually are:

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/eighthsurvey/8sv.pdf

That's the most recent one that isn't under password protection or cut down. Look thru pages 28 - 35. The data is still there, it's just a bit more difficult to read.


IMO a criminal is still a human being regardless of his or her crimes, and thus in name of equality no government has the right to answer murder with murder. It will never undo the damage done, and usually is nothing but revenge.

While I condone the use of deadly force under immediate and severe threat to one's life, something like Castle Doctrine with the stand-your-ground cause is completely ridiculous. Not only does it cheapen human life by making it "OK" to shoot someone who looks even remotely threatening, it also encourages the criminals to harden their measures - the mark will try to shoot you anyway, so why not just shoot him first?

Anyway, this is going way off-topic. Shall we end this here for now, or continue it in a different thread?

If you want, I don't feel like arguing too much more today and won't this weekend either. But you can create a thread about death penalty later and I might pop in.

This type of arguement will never end, its sad really. If a person comments a violent crime and blames it on a game....come on think about that. Dont you think that person was fucked in the head to begin with. The games/violence thing isnt a "reason" its an "excuse", a copout. Crazy ppl are always gonna do crazy shit, no matter what u censor or edit. By the way remember when crazy ppl were just that "crazy" and there wasnt some bullshit excuse to rationalize every action. The plain and simple truth is that if any human being uses a game,movie,tv show as a reason to commit a crime they are really screwed upstairs to begin with. But us as a society are giving ppl reason to use these copouts by saying that these forms of entertainment are corrupting thier minds, just adding fuel to the fire.

EDIT: @luinil: 

All right. It's about time too - it's 3:15 AM here in Finland and I want to get some freakin' sleep. :P

I might create a thread about capital punishment and its flaws, if I suddenly decide that I want to start a debate.

90% of Europe, the UN climate panel, a slew of scientists and weather experts and geologists disagree. I'm not surprised that North Americans see it as a myth though, same with China and India (ironically much of the research has been done by Indian personel). Here in Norway, the 7 warmest years in 200 years have been measure since 1998 and the aggricultural parts of out land is screwed up due to unexpected and unfamiliar temperatures and weather, the very seasons themselves don't function properly anymore here.

Grossly off topic perhaps, but there is no more science to support the claim that global warming is a myth than there is support that it is not. Which is why I treat the subject with respect. I can only go by my personal experience, and in my personal experience Norway is not the same as it was even 15-20 years back when I was a little boy playing in the snow (that we no longer have while areas that have not seen siginficant snowfall, Kristiansand and Oslo for instance, have been literally snowed down the last 3 years).