Borkachev said: FFXII may not have bad gameplay but the story and characters just aren't worth investing the time in and that's the problem. It's a mediocre action game and a bad RPG. This from the guy who didn't get 20 hours in? You can criticize it for starting slow (and it does, though I'd say it's the first 3-5 hours rather than the first 15), but you have no place judging its story or characters.

One more time: anything that takes 20 hours to get good is bad.

It doesn't matter if everything after whatever that mark is absolutely fantastic they fail at storytelling because they don't know how to grab the players interest.

-edit-

How about in Bioshock if it took you 5 hours before you got your first plasmid and saw your first Big Daddy?

How about if you couldn't jump in Super Mario Galaxy until an hour into the game?

How about if you couldn't snipe someone in COD4 until 2 hours into the game?

How about if you couldn't steal a car in GTAIV until you played it for six hours?

All of those would suck so why should FFXII be any different? You don't actually get into the good bits of the story until 20 hours into the game and story and characters should be what a game is about. It doesn't matter that it's fantastic beyond that point, you've lost your audience by the time you get there.

You've got my vote up for FFXII. Best one since 7 (and if you don't like 7, best one since 6 or 10, or whatever, just my opinion).

"it doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy" "it doesn't feel like a Square game" just wtf is this I keep reading people repeating all the time a more mature Final Fantasy is produced? You want to play remakes of NES classics forever? and just what's a Square game supposed to feel like?

"I didn't care for the characters" Did you seriously care for Rikku or Wacka (or even believed his romance with Lulu) Did you love so much that sissy animated, horribly-voiced Tidus? Did you give a crap about Squall or Rinoa, Irwin, Quistis? What about Freya and Quina, Amarant anyone? Cat Sith? Even Aeris was lame too. My point is there will always be poor characters in the games, if someone can't like any of them in a single game maybe it has to do more with the whole plot and setting than the characters, 'cause you can bet you'll always be able to find worse ones in previous FF games.

"Battle system was ok" I don't mean to step on people's preferences , but I'll just say this is the best Square could do to turn the franchise to a different direction. I have no doubt FF13 will be very similar and better. Once I got through FF12 playing the whole world rotating the camera, battling real-time, I just couldn't play FFX again (I tried, and simply couldn't) I felt caged.

Borkachev said: FFXII may not have bad gameplay but the story and characters just aren't worth investing the time in and that's the problem. It's a mediocre action game and a bad RPG. This from the guy who didn't get 20 hours in? You can criticize it for starting slow (and it does, though I'd say it's the first 3-5 hours rather than the first 15), but you have no place judging its story or characters.

Oh lordy. If someone gets past the 15 hour mark in a game, he has every right to bitch about the story and characters.

Not everyone is masochistic enough to keep playing a game they hate for 40 hours in hopes that the story might turn the corner at the 1 1/2 day mark.

twesterm said: Borkachev said: FFXII may not have bad gameplay but the story and characters just aren't worth investing the time in and that's the problem. It's a mediocre action game and a bad RPG. This from the guy who didn't get 20 hours in? You can criticize it for starting slow (and it does, though I'd say it's the first 3-5 hours rather than the first 15), but you have no place judging its story or characters. One more time: anything that takes 20 hours to get good is bad. It doesn't matter if everything after whatever that mark is absolutely fantastic they fail at storytelling because they don't know how to grab the players interest. -edit- How about in Bioshock if it took you 5 hours before you got your first plasmid and saw your first Big Daddy? How about if you couldn't jump in Super Mario Galaxy until an hour into the game? How about if you couldn't snipe someone in COD4 until 2 hours into the game? How about if you couldn't steal a car in GTAIV until you played it for six hours? All of those would suck so why should FFXII be any different? You don't actually get into the good bits of the story until 20 hours into the game and story and characters should be what a game is about. It doesn't matter that it's fantastic beyond that point, you've lost your audience by the time you get there.

I've essentially been convinced to buy the game now, but this really has me worried.  I'm a chronic game unfinisher, and having to play ~20 hours before things pick up would probably result in me quitting after the 2-3 hour mark.

Let's clear one thing up here: I'm not encouraging you to go back and play past that 20 hour mark. If you hated it up to that point, I don't think there's anything later on that's going to change your mind. What I'm saying is that you can't make general statements about it based on limited experience. You have every right to say "the story and characters were badly written early on." You'd still be wrong, but at least you'd be entitled to that opinion.

I've never been able to get more than a couple chapters into anything by Sinclair Lewis, who is generally considered a great writer. I find his stuff boring. But I'd never have the audacity to jump in with a group of his fans and critics and toss my ill-informed opinion out on them. Instead I recognize the brilliance of the writing where I've seen it and accept that there's something in it that doesn't appeal to me personally.

In any case, there are plenty of RPGs with dull beginnings that still get high praise. Okami. Kingdom Hearts 2. Xenogears (actually, about 50% of that game counts). And yes, according to pretty well all the critics, FF XII. That's just RPGs: tons of other classic games start with hour-long tutorials and other nonsense. Games are a complex, dynamic medium with a lot of tolerance for highs and lows in one or more of their areas.

Not that I'm conceding that FFXII's story is bad at any point. Right from the start it's deep, sophisticated, and extremely well-told. It's without a doubt the most mature story of any game in the main series -- I just don't find it especially entertaining. Yet I can separate my personal feelings about it from the objective facts about it: the structure of the narrative, the quality of the writing, the complexity of the characters. Some other awfully smart people, like Tycho from Penny-Arcade, apparently appreciated it more than I did, just as I liked it more than you did.

makingmusic476 said: twesterm said: Borkachev said: FFXII may not have bad gameplay but the story and characters just aren't worth investing the time in and that's the problem. It's a mediocre action game and a bad RPG. This from the guy who didn't get 20 hours in? You can criticize it for starting slow (and it does, though I'd say it's the first 3-5 hours rather than the first 15), but you have no place judging its story or characters. One more time: anything that takes 20 hours to get good is bad. It doesn't matter if everything after whatever that mark is absolutely fantastic they fail at storytelling because they don't know how to grab the players interest. -edit- How about in Bioshock if it took you 5 hours before you got your first plasmid and saw your first Big Daddy? How about if you couldn't jump in Super Mario Galaxy until an hour into the game? How about if you couldn't snipe someone in COD4 until 2 hours into the game? How about if you couldn't steal a car in GTAIV until you played it for six hours? All of those would suck so why should FFXII be any different? You don't actually get into the good bits of the story until 20 hours into the game and story and characters should be what a game is about. It doesn't matter that it's fantastic beyond that point, you've lost your audience by the time you get there. I've essentially been convinced to buy the game now, but this really has me worried. I'm a chronic game unfinisher, and having to play ~20 hours before things pick up would probably result in me quitting after the 2-3 hour mark.

I'd say ignore the story... but the gameplay takes 3-4 horus to pick up.
Hell the game takes like a half hour to get through the opening sequence.   

 

^you jump into the game right away. Whoever says otherwise is talking nonsense.

Also, take this advice if you play it : Don't try to play the game with Battle mode set on "active" the first time (by default is wait).

A strategy guide or some in-depth walktrough from gamefaqs could be helpful too, specially for obtaining the best items you get collecting rare stuff monsters drop or you steal from them.

Magnific0 said: ^you jump into the game right away. Whoever says otherwise is talking nonsense. Also, take this advice if you play it : Don't try to play the game with Battle mode set on "active" the first time (by default is wait). A strategy guide or some in-depth walktrough from gamefaqs could be helpful too, specially for obtaining the best items you get collecting rare stuff monsters drop or you steal from them.

What, some old guy mumbles on for what seemed like 10-15 minutes, you see like a cutscene, you play a tutorial with a soldier, and then you watch them mubling on again for like another 15 minutes before you get to a character who matters.... (If van really matters... eh)

It took so long to get through it all i made a running diary because it was comical... amusingly the story is where i picekd off it's very first ripping off moments of Tactics Ogre.  Also sadly this diary was on my old computer.

and the gameplay really doesn't pick up until you get your party together and mostly stuck with your for good.

 

i liked the license and gambit system >.>
8/10

Ok I had to join VGChartz just for this thread, so first here is my RPG Expirience:

Final Fantasy 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ,10-2, DOC, CC, T, TA, MQ

Xenogears, Xenosaga 1,2,3

Brave Fencer Musashi, Samurai Legend

Saga Frontier 1,2, Unlimited Saga, Romancing Saga

Persona 1,2,3, Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner

Dark Cloud 1,2

Chrono Trigger, Cross

Suikoden 2, 3, 5

Kingdom Hearts 1, 2

Front Mission 1, 3, 4

Breath of Fire 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Megaman Legends 1, 2

Shining Force 1, 2, CD

Phantasy Star 2, 3, 4, O

Valkyrie Profile 1, 2

Legend of Legaia 1, 2

Summoner 1, 2 

Parasite Eve 1, 2 

Legend of Dragoon, Stella Deus, Vandal Hearts 2, Chocobos Dungeon 2, Threads of Fate, Enchanted Arms, Folklore, Lost Odyssy, KOTOR, Oblivion,  Vagrant Story, Odin Sphere.

 

Ok Yeah thats alot of RPG's (no thats not all of the ones I've played), so any way on to FFXII.

 

The thing that I've noticed about Final Fantasy XII is that it really isnt for the younger crowd, like everyone that I've seen that loved it were over 18 or 20, and those that didnt like it were like under 16 or so.  I cant really tell you why but maybe that the younger gamers cant relate to the majority older cast of XII, or maybe the plot is too grown up for them or something.

 

One thing that i noticed about the character development in this game was that alot of it was told visualy, instead of the usual "This is my life story, deal with it".  Now you may or may not like this aproch to character development, but the development is there if you look for it.  Another thing that people might not have liked about the game is that Vaan is not the main character, the story is told through his eyes, but Basch and Ashe are the main characters in the game.  Its kind of like the story telling in Hellboy, were the story is told from Mayers perspective, Hellboy is still the main character.

 

Another thing that people probably didnt like was that this is by far the most serious story of the main franchise ( Final Fantasy Tactics being the overall most serious), while there is still humor in the game for the most part it gets down to buisness and doesnt fool arround too much (unlike X).  And when people say that this is direct copy of the Star Wars story, they are unfortunatly looking only skin deep.  The story in FFXII is way more complex and political driven than Star Wars ever was, it is true however that if you look at the basic story they will seem very similar, but when you delve deeper and get into the more subtle details they are totaly different expiriences.

 

As for gameplay there really isnt much to say that hasnt been said already, at first you will probably hate the gambit system, but when you get your full party and start getting the more complex comands, it easily becomes one of the best combat engines the series has seen yet.  Its one of those systems were it gradualy gets you into it so you dont become overwelmed with the amount of things you can do with it.  Graphics are as people have stated some of the best the PS2 has to offer, if not the best.  The music while great is not one of Hitoshi Sakimoto's best works, its his longest score though which is probably why it isnt one of his best.  There are a few really exceptional songs in the game though, like the boss theme is probably the best I've heard in a Final Fantasy game.

 

So if you havent noticed already I loved Final Fantasy XII, I personaly think its the 3rd best in the franchise (Final Fantasy VI and Tactics being my favorite), and if you look at the top of my post you will see that I have played them all and beaten most of them.  So overal, both the story and the gameplay are quite complex in XII, While I will agree that not every one will like it in the end, I sugest that you at least try it to see for your self.  I paid $60 for the colectors edition and I do not regret it at all, so it is beyond well worth the $20 you pay for it now.

 

Overall I give the game a 96/100