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Forums - Nintendo - Why Are Game-Key Cards So Controversial?

 

A new game releases on NS2!… but it’s a GKC.

What difference does it make? I’m buying. 3 8.57%
 
Eh, I’ll still buy. 4 11.43%
 
Hm… I’ll think on it. 2 5.71%
 
I’ll pass. 9 25.71%
 
Immediate no. 17 48.57%
 
Total:35
Cerebralbore101 said:
Pemalite said:

Sorry. That is blatantly false.

I can still put my Windows 98 StarCraft: Brood Wars CD into my USB external Blu-Ray drive on my modern Windows 11 PC and install and run the game perfectly fine, despite being 27 years old.

Likewise, I can still put my original Age of Empires (1997) CD from 2002 that I got in a Kellogs cereal box and run it perfectly fine from disk.

I have Commander Keen on floppy disk, which I can install from my USB floppy drive, that's a game that released for DOS in 1990, 36 years ago.

These are games that are older than Steam. And will continue to be perfectly operational for years to come.

PC is a platform that is contiguous, it doesn't have "Generational breaks" the same as console, besides OS changes, which can have work around's for backwards compatibility (I.E. DosBox), which exists regardless if it's digital or physical.

Isn't that all just via software emulators? No native playing? 

It's a native install and play for StarCraft/Age of Empires etc'.
Just drop in the 30 year old CD Rom, install, play.

DOS games regardless if you buy them physical or digital tend to require DOSBox or another emulator unless you run a VM of Win9x.

sc94597 said:

I am not getting in this is argument with you given our prior discussions and your tendency toward inflexible black and white thinking. 

But no it isn't blatantly false that I can more easily play a digital version of games released in 2004 on most current hardware than it is to play a disc version that depends on me accessing an optical drive in the year 2026. I am not carrying a fricken external optical drive everywhere I go with my laptop.

And that is without considering compatibility issues that Steam streamlines and reduces.

This is my last post on this topic in response to you. Already seen where it is going with language like "blatantly false." 

Optical drives are still readily available on PC.

I noticed you are American, you can still easily buy a USB DVD Rom drive that will work on all PC Laptops, Desktops and Tablets running Windows or Linux.
https://www.newegg.com/p/105-00EH-00089

A quick look on Amazon also showcases dozens of USB Drives.

You can even buy them from Wallmart.
https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/dvd-usb

Games released in 2004 tend to be extremely god damn compatible with Windows 10/11 as all games at that time tended to be released with Windows XP in mind which is based on the NT Kernel which has extremely good interoperability with Vista/7/8/10/11 Windows OS's as they are also based on the NT Kernel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Releases

It's Win9x where things can start being hit or miss as it was built on top of DOS and thus needed 16-bit compatibility which modern 64bit windows versions tended to be poor at supporting due to a lack of NTVDM.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compatibility/ntvdm-and-16-bit-app-support
But Win9x is much much much older than 2004 and is thus not an issue for any game released in 2004.

Whether you want to continue this discussion is entirely up to you, but you have really provided no technical reasoning in this discussion or even provided evidence for your claims... Just blurted out an opinion that is blatantly false and claimed everyone else is incorrect.
Keep in mind I was also a PC gamer during this era, before you were born, so I have first hand experience.

So with the evidence I have presented... And you running away. I have won. Wish it was always this easy. 

Cerebralbore101 said:

You are both sort of right. On one hand he can play his physical games. On the other hand playing them via a software emulator instead of a period-correct PC is like slapping an original NES cart into one of those crappy $25 NES clones that retrobit or hyperkin puts out. It's just not authentic or accurate anymore. Might as well run an emulator with a digital rom, because without the original hardware or an fpga solution it's not going to run right. 

It depends how far back you go.

At around the year 1996 games started to have 32bit executable's and started to support NT based OS's.
But at around 2001 it was no longer an issue.

But you don't need to emulate or have a period correct PC or an FPGA solution. Virtual Machines essentially fixed the issue entirely.
Things like texture formats etc' have all remained supported natively in hardware over the decades... The biggest change that often makes games seem "different" today compared to when we first started playing (Even natively) is actually the display.

Back in the mid 90's PC's were running high-resolution 4:3/5:4 aspect CRT displays at very good refresh rates, so games looked really really really good... But run those same old games (Which for example may use checkerboard sprites to simulate transparency on a CRT) on a modern pixel-perfect display, iyou see all the tricks and shortcuts developers took... Those same sprites will look terrible and not transparent. - Then stretch it to a 16:9/16:10 aspect (Unless you have black bars) and the original artist intent is lost.

But for all intents, you don't need emulation of any kind for Windows PC games, you may need a patch, even a community patch to make it work however in some cases.

The oldest game I play today that doesn't use DOS or emulation is probably Age of Empires (1997), Diablo (1996), Command and Conquer (1995), WarCraft 2 (1995) as they all are native 32bit apps.
Games like Dungeon Keeper are a hassle to get working on a modern 64bit PC due to the games 16bit executable, but I run OTVdm (winevdm) that translates the 16bit set to let me run those games natively on Windows 11. (As modern x86 CPU's can still run 16bit code natively)

https://mendelson.org/otvdm.html




Last edited by Pemalite - 1 day ago


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sc94597 said:

But no it isn't blatantly false that I can more easily play a digital version of games released in 2004 on most current hardware than it is to play a disc version that depends on me accessing an optical drive in the year 2026. I am not carrying a fricken external optical drive everywhere I go with my laptop.

Yes digital is obviously more practical to install on modern systems. Especially when you get into issues with DRM like StarForce. I collected a lot of physical PC games in 2024 and got a Windows XP machine for retro pc gaming. But I'm not going to argue they're anywhere near as convenient and easy to use as digital games lol.

I also had to spend many hours getting patches for hundreds of games downloaded from old ass websites, whereas digital will sort all that out for you. It's much easier.



Pemalite said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Isn't that all just via software emulators? No native playing? 

It's a native install and play for StarCraft/Age of Empires etc'.
Just drop in the 30 year old CD Rom, install, play.

DOS games regardless if you buy them physical or digital tend to require DOSBox or another emulator unless you run a VM of Win9x.

sc94597 said:

I am not getting in this is argument with you given our prior discussions and your tendency toward inflexible black and white thinking. 

But no it isn't blatantly false that I can more easily play a digital version of games released in 2004 on most current hardware than it is to play a disc version that depends on me accessing an optical drive in the year 2026. I am not carrying a fricken external optical drive everywhere I go with my laptop.

And that is without considering compatibility issues that Steam streamlines and reduces.

This is my last post on this topic in response to you. Already seen where it is going with language like "blatantly false." 

Optical drives are still readily available on PC.

I noticed you are American, you can still easily buy a USB DVD Rom drive that will work on all PC Laptops, Desktops and Tablets running Windows or Linux.
https://www.newegg.com/p/105-00EH-00089

A quick look on Amazon also showcases dozens of USB Drives.

You can even buy them from Wallmart.
https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/dvd-usb

Games released in 2004 tend to be extremely god damn compatible with Windows 10/11 as all games at that time tended to be released with Windows XP in mind which is based on the NT Kernel which has extremely good interoperability with Vista/7/8/10/11 Windows OS's as they are also based on the NT Kernel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Releases

It's Win9x where things can start being hit or miss as it was built on top of DOS and thus needed 16-bit compatibility which modern 64bit windows versions tended to be poor at supporting due to a lack of NTVDM.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compatibility/ntvdm-and-16-bit-app-support
But Win9x is much much much older than 2004 and is thus not an issue for any game released in 2004.

Whether you want to continue this discussion is entirely up to you, but you have really provided no technical reasoning in this discussion or even provided evidence for your claims... Just blurted out an opinion that is blatantly false and claimed everyone else is incorrect.
Keep in mind I was also a PC gamer during this era, before you were born, so I have first hand experience.

So with the evidence I have presented... And you running away. I have won. Wish it was always this easy. 

Cerebralbore101 said:

You are both sort of right. On one hand he can play his physical games. On the other hand playing them via a software emulator instead of a period-correct PC is like slapping an original NES cart into one of those crappy $25 NES clones that retrobit or hyperkin puts out. It's just not authentic or accurate anymore. Might as well run an emulator with a digital rom, because without the original hardware or an fpga solution it's not going to run right. 

It depends how far back you go.

At around the year 1996 games started to have 32bit executable's and started to support NT based OS's.
But at around 2001 it was no longer an issue.

But you don't need to emulate or have a period correct PC or an FPGA solution. Virtual Machines essentially fixed the issue entirely.
Things like texture formats etc' have all remained supported natively in hardware over the decades... The biggest change that often makes games seem "different" today compared to when we first started playing (Even natively) is actually the display.

Back in the mid 90's PC's were running high-resolution 4:3/5:4 aspect CRT displays at very good refresh rates, so games looked really really really good... But run those same old games (Which for example may use checkerboard sprites to simulate transparency on a CRT) on a modern pixel-perfect display, iyou see all the tricks and shortcuts developers took... Those same sprites will look terrible and not transparent. - Then stretch it to a 16:9/16:10 aspect (Unless you have black bars) and the original artist intent is lost.

But for all intents, you don't need emulation of any kind for Windows PC games, you may need a patch, even a community patch to make it work however in some cases.

The oldest game I play today that doesn't use DOS or emulation is probably Age of Empires (1997), Diablo (1996), Command and Conquer (1995), WarCraft 2 (1995) as they all are native 32bit apps.
Games like Dungeon Keeper are a hassle to get working on a modern 64bit PC due to the games 16bit executable, but I run OTVdm (winevdm) that translates the 16bit set to let me run those games natively on Windows 11. (As modern x86 CPU's can still run 16bit code natively)

https://mendelson.org/otvdm.html




I'm still learning about retro PCs so I may have been wrong. Will respond in detail later on.

Just wanted to say that I am well aware of how essential a CRT is. I own a multi-format BVM with an FPGA clone card to output 480p, 720p and 1080i. Also have a GCDual mod and a bunch of other goodies. 

In fact join the new retro forum because I'm going to make a new hardware and software thread with pics quite often in there. Your knowledge of retro PCs would be more than welcome there. 

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - 1 day ago

Zippy6 said:
sc94597 said:

But no it isn't blatantly false that I can more easily play a digital version of games released in 2004 on most current hardware than it is to play a disc version that depends on me accessing an optical drive in the year 2026. I am not carrying a fricken external optical drive everywhere I go with my laptop.

Yes digital is obviously more practical to install on modern systems. Especially when you get into issues with DRM like StarForce. I collected a lot of physical PC games in 2024 and got a Windows XP machine for retro pc gaming. But I'm not going to argue they're anywhere near as convenient and easy to use as digital games lol.

I also had to spend many hours getting patches for hundreds of games downloaded from old ass websites, whereas digital will sort all that out for you. It's much easier.

Yep, I have had similar experiences. Hell, even many digital games I've had from the mid-to-late 2000's and even early 2010's have some compatibility issues. I even remember trying to play Civ 5 on a Windows 10 system and having to spend hours to get it working, as an example, and that game released in 2010. Steam solved it for me eventually though. But it shouldn't be a problem because that game wasn't developed for DOS. 🙄 Oh and the fact that I can buy an optical drive somehow makes it as convenient to play games off one as to play digital games apparently.

Last edited by sc94597 - 1 day ago

sc94597 said:
Zippy6 said:

Yes digital is obviously more practical to install on modern systems. Especially when you get into issues with DRM like StarForce. I collected a lot of physical PC games in 2024 and got a Windows XP machine for retro pc gaming. But I'm not going to argue they're anywhere near as convenient and easy to use as digital games lol.

I also had to spend many hours getting patches for hundreds of games downloaded from old ass websites, whereas digital will sort all that out for you. It's much easier.

Yep, I have had similar experiences. Hell, even many digital games I've had from the mid-to-late 2000's and even early 2010's have some compatibility issues. I even remember trying to play Civ 5 on a Windows 10 system and having to spend hours to get it working, as an example, and that game released in 2010. Steam solved it for me eventually though. But it shouldn't be a problem because that game wasn't developed for DOS. 🙄 Oh and the fact that I can buy an optical drive somehow makes it as convenient to play games off one as to play digital games apparently.

That compatibility is likely due to the DRM itself, not the actual game, otherwise the game is fully compatible with modern Windows PC's.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ5-will-not-run-on-windows-11-after-updating-to-version-24h2.693417/

SafeDisc DRM is incompatible with newer versions of Windows as Microsoft removed secdrv.sys driver from Windows 11.

I can run Civilization 3 just fine... In-fact all I need to do is disabling high DPI scaling and that game is older than Civilization 5. (Obviously.)
Civilization 2 (1996) is borked on modern Windows 64bit systems as it uses a 16bit executable, which I have already provided the evidence prior on why that is an issue, but also provided functional work around's.

Copy protection from the early 2000's is a bane in PC gaming in 2020's because of garbage like Safedisc, but you can work around it through batch file commands, executable cracks or modifying your install.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thesims1/comments/tzr007/how_to_bypass_safedisc_drm_to_install_or_digitize/

You are going to have to try harder than that to try and refute evidence that has been presented.

Cerebralbore101 said:

I'm still learning about retro PCs so I may have been wrong. Will respond in detail later on.

Just wanted to say that I am well aware of how essential a CRT is. I own a multi-format BVM with an FPGA clone card to output 480p, 720p and 1080i. Also have a GCDual mod and a bunch of other goodies. 

In fact join the new retro forum because I'm going to make a new hardware and software thread with pics quite often in there. Your knowledge of retro PCs would be more than welcome there. 

I have period correct PC's starting with Windows 98SE (Athlon+3dfx Voodoo 2+Radeon 9550), Windows Vista (Core 2 Quad, Radeon 7950), Windows 7 (Phenom 2 x6, Radeon RX 580).

Will eventually get a Windows 3.1 system to round things out. Just haven't gotten there yet.
Hardest part is finding decent CRT's in 2026 for PC's.

Will make an appearance in the retro forum soon. 

Last edited by Pemalite - 1 day ago


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"Digital platforms are more convenient and accessible, they help streamline patching and resolve compatibility issues, especially when playing older games on modern hardware and Operating Systems." 

(Paraphrase) "You are objectively wrong! If you buy accessory hardware and do x, y, z workarounds you can play old physical games on modern hardware too! I win!" (Paraphrase)

🫠

Okay I really need to stick to my original statement and not engage, even if indirectly. 

As a side-note, it would be quite funny to see somebody attaching a portable optical drive to their Steam Deck or other PC handheld to play old physical PC games as they commute. Of course realistically, they'd just no-cd crack (when possible) and essentially have a digital copy at that point, but again that is far more of a pain than just purchasing the game on GOG probably for $5 or something and downloading it with all patches and compatibility layers streamlined for the user.

I also don't think it is controversial to consider that things like Proton wouldn't exist in the state they are in without Steam getting involved with reusing Wine for their goals. Linux gaming would be far behind without that specific digital platform (Steam.)

Last edited by sc94597 - 1 day ago

Running off topic since the Civ series was mentioned…

I’ve played a few games of Civ 7 and I quite like it. Everyone in the fanbase seems to hate it, but for me, it’s the first mainline Civ game that’s felt like a proper 4X since Civ 2. I forget Civ 3, I was still mainly playing Civ 2 in that era, but by Civ 4 the series had evolved into a game series that is more for the current social internet fanbase, but not so much me anymore. And I had similar issues with Civ 6, that the game seemed to be mainly about building few cities, exploiting those resources with growing efficiency, and try to avoid expansion and war as much as possible for most of the game… until it was time to complete the game… if going for a military victory. But, if your main joy is the building and exploiting, I can understand the shifting focus to the expansion and exploration as much as the exploitation might not be as appealing… the extermination element is still not what it was in the earliest Civ games, I’ll admit, but it won’t crush your progress to wipe out an enemy… especially minor civs (if you want to smash them). The reason extermination isn’t preferable in Civ 7 has more to do with the carrot of keeping them around than the stick of everyone will want you dead for eternity.

There are some relatively impotent appendages in Civ 7, like religion… I think it was Civ 4 they started it, and they still have yet to make it anything more than a giant grindy headache. Luckily, skipping it after grabbing some initial benefits (like capital or first time conversions to get relics) doesn’t make much of a difference in play. I have read suggestions from the more sane fans that this could just be a placeholder until a later expansion revamps and replaces the system… Paradox Games tends to be good with religion, so a good religion system isn’t beyond comprehension.

Sorry, way off topic…
…I just like talking about Civ.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

All Nintendo has to do is when a generation ends remove the DRM bullshit via a final firmware update so I can simply copy my files to a HDD and drag and drop them to a new SD card on any switch I buy on the secondary market if mine should fail. Why encrypt it still when the generation has ended? How cool would it be if they even gave you the option to backup your game cart into a digital game cart that you can install on your switch.

If they don't want me to do the above ever, it needs to be as simple as steam and the service needs to stay up forever for people to accept full digital. When my old PC dies, I simply install steam on a new PC and it simply installs the game. It doesn't treat me like a criminal with encrypted data tied to my old PC.



 

 

1. It requires internet to download - for people like me who have the best possible internet offered in my area, it took me 30 hours to download Arkham Knight on Switch (24 GB)
2. Micro SD is crazy expensive (at least here in Canada)
3. It carries no data on the cart. I would have accepted installing the data directly from the cart.

Yeah I'm in the minority of preferring physical, but how is it bad to want more options? One day, the only option will be subscriptions... That'll suck.



1doesnotsimply

They shouldn't have even offered GCKs and just gone digital only which every mobile platform is today. There's no other company that would make a mobile platform today with a cartridge or disk format.

Cartridges are an outdated, expensive, and poorly performing format that had their time.

And people aren't happy with the half way solution anyway, shouldn't have even bothered. Switch 3 will be digital only.