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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Halo - The New Era Begins

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G2ThaUNiT said:
Shaunodon said:

New names, all look the same, all speak the same.

You're welcome to buy into this blatant marketing scheme (which is basically just the Infinite sales pitch 2.0), other people are welcome to feel indifferent.

Halo was a massive part of my adolescence, I have no problem leaving it there and moving on. They haven't proven they can recreate what made this franchise special and there's no reason outside of blind optimism to believe they ever will.

I have no expecations but good luck to them.

It absolutely is a blatant marketing scheme as this new leadership hasn’t made any games yet. The only thing they’ve shown up to this point is a concept.

But it’s a highly disingenuous take to try to pass it off as “Infinite sales pitch 2.0” because, again, no 343 leadership role in any capacity is at this studio.

All the people that sold us on the original Infinite sales pitch are literally no longer there. So just passing them off before they’ve even had a chance to prove themselves because you’re already comparing them to their predecessors just rubs me the wrong way. None of the leadership or the lead creatives at this newly refreshed studio have made their own Halo game before.

Idk what to expect because they haven’t made a Halo game yet. So I don’t have any expectations because I don’t have anything to base it on. So, I can only be hopeful that they’re able to deliver on their first attempt. 

This isn't court. They don't get the benefit of the doubt before anything's been proven. This is a business market, and until they've proven they can make something worthwhile, I have no reason to give a damn. Just based on the people they're replacing, the people backing them, the way Microsoft continues to manage their studios and the fact they look and sound exactly the same, that's already enough reason to not even start caring.

Neither of us have expectations, the difference is that I don't have or need hope, I have other games I'd rather be focused on.



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twintail said:

The move to UE5 is kind of disappointing to hear. Less bespoke engines on the market now.

But it should make it easier to port to PS consoles, and to get additional support from other teams also using UE5.

Being Bespoke doesn't make it good. Majority of games share alot of tech, Havok, Wwise etc.

It's about finding the best engine for the job, not weather it's internal or external. 

Game engines are also modified for specific games. The Coalition modified and enhance the Unreal Engines to make Gears of War.

Why did you leave out Switch 2 port? If it's getting a port to PS, it will most likely come to everything. If they choose to port it.



twintail said:

The move to UE5 is kind of disappointing to hear. Less bespoke engines on the market now.

But it should make it easier to port to PS consoles, and to get additional support from other teams also using UE5.

Being Bespoke doesn't make it good. Majority of games share alot of tech, Havok, Wwise etc.

It's about finding the best engine for the job, not weather it's internal or external. 

Game engines are also modified for specific games. The Coalition modified and enhance the Unreal Engines to make Gears of War.

Why did you leave out Switch 2 port? If it's getting a port to PS, it will most likely come to everything. If they choose to port it.



Azzanation said:
twintail said:

The move to UE5 is kind of disappointing to hear. Less bespoke engines on the market now.

But it should make it easier to port to PS consoles, and to get additional support from other teams also using UE5.

Being Bespoke doesn't make it good. Majority of games share alot of tech, Havok, Wwise etc.

It's about finding the best engine for the job, not weather it's internal or external. 

Game engines are also modified for specific games. The Coalition modified and enhance the Unreal Engines to make Gears of War.

Why did you leave out Switch 2 port? If it's getting a port to PS, it will most likely come to everything. If they choose to port it.

Whether the internal engine is good or not for the job doesn't change that's it's still disappointing that there are less internal engines going around. 

And I left out Switch 2 because I just didn't type it out. Naturally they'll port to whatever they can.



LegitHyperbole said:
Pemalite said:

Halo: Reach was probably the last super good Halo FPS title.

Halo Wars was a good RTS for a console game... And Spartan Assault was a different take as well.

Halo 4 was a technical showpiece for the Xbox 360 console and gave the Xbox 360 a good send off... But it's Multiplayer and Story left much to be desired, I did like the inclusion of the Prometheans to mix up the flood/covenant stuff that we had experienced already for years.

Chrkeller said:

343 is underrated IMO. I really enjoyed Reach, 4 and Infinite. Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but they were 343 games, no?

Halo 1, 2, 3, ODST and Reach was made by Bungie.
Halo 4, 5 and Infinite were made by 343i.
Halo Wars was made by Ensemble Studios. (One of the best RTS developers... Microsoft closed them.)
Halo Wars 2 was made Creative Assembly.
Spartan Assault and Spartan Strike was made by Vanguard Games... With Spartan Strike being the only Halo game never to release on an Xbox console.
Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary original game code made by Bungie, remaster done by Saber.

Halo: The Master Chief Collection gets tricky... As Saber Interactive did the remaster of Halo 2 with Blur Studios doing the cut-scenes which was incredible, Saber Also did the original Combat Evolved Anniversary Remaster...

343i work involved the combining of all the titles into a single package which ended up being a logistical nightmare, resulting in an absolute unplayable, buggy, terrible mess... Requiring a complete top to bottom rebuild of the set... Microsoft also issued an apology and a free copy of ODST, 1 month of free Xbox Live.

Without a doubt... Bungie made the best Halo FPS games, all of 343i games have fallen short.
Spartan Assault and Spartan Strike were good, albeit short low-budget romps... And Halo Wars 1+2 is a basic, simple, bare-bones, shallow RTS, but has it's charm if you can get around the lack of online population and support.

Here is the kicker... Did you know you can still connect the Original Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One and Xbox Series X and play the original Halo 1+2 over LAN via backwards compatibility on all the consoles still?

I do it with my consoles on the odd occasion... But I also have a ton of PC's so it's easier just to fire those up instead.

LegitHyperbole said:

Nah, We're never getting those days back again. Even if the people at 343 magically raised their talent levels to that of bungie they don't seem to know what a Halo player wants. Best bet for them to make a good Halo game is to remake Combat Evolved and or for a MP game remake all the original trilogy maps and put them in one package. I'd buy a series S for the latter. 

I think that's part of the issue... People are expecting 343i to be like Bungie.
They aren't Bungie and never will be... But 343i also needs to realize this and lean on it's own strengths rather than just trying to stick to a formula or continuously make the same mistakes. (I.E. Lack of Content and expected features with Halo 5 and Infinite on launch.)

One advantage of having their own in-house engine was that they could engineer the engine to the consoles strengths and weaknesses... I.E. Halo 3 used the Tessellation unit (Something Sony didn't have until the PS4) to make Tessellated water effects.
But they also pushed a ton of Alpha Effects which the Xbox 360's insane bandwidth was really amazing at handling.

And Halo 4 they leveraged the extremely flexible shaders on Xbox 360 to implement subsurface scattering on skin to give a very realistic effect... Which ironically is ray tracing.

What did Halo 5 and Infinite do that wowed people to want to buy an Xbox console? It wasn't class-leading graphics, Halo 5 was a terrible looking game and it didn't even have 60fps animations, it was built as a 30fps game.
And Infinite was ridiculed heavily for it's flat texturing and lighting, which forced a delay in it's release.

Technology matters, I just hope that a shift to UE5 isn't going to make the games feel "samey" to all the other UE5 games.

Exactly. They never will be bungie and they'll never capture that lightning in the bottle that bungie has. Wether people are expecting it or not, they just don't have it in them. And graphics performance aren't the problem, it's the core gameplay and how they design the games. Pretty sure that fan base wants a semi linear game with little fluff but one that has core gameplay as addicting and feels as good as Destiny 2 and well designed MP maps to be able to use the perfect fps gameplay against other people. That's it, there's no more to the equation and 343 can't seem to do that. 

Gameplay is not the issue with Halo, 343i nailed the Bungie titles on Gameplay. Once you play Infinite, it's hard going back to older titles.

It's the direction of the story and the lack of content which has hurt the new games. The Story will always be a challenge since Bungie told the best parts. As for content, we now know the Engine was the issue. 

All they need to do is write an epic story, provide the gameplay they have been offering and fill it with content.

That's when we will have an amazing Halo game. Halo Studios seems to be addressing these issues, hence the changes.

Last edited by Azzanation - 6 days ago

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As I figured. It's just a PR move. https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/1fzc6c0/senior_animator_will_waltz_who_used_to_work_at/
Former animator who worked there for 13 years recommends no one work there. For years not heard good things about the work environment there. Phil swept that sexual harassment case under the rug some years back.

Unrelated to the Reddit post. The move to UE5 has to do with the 18-month contracts MS does. YOu hired people with experience on a popular engine than learn a new one. Use them for a bit then dump them. While Retro has used the RUDE Engine for 20 years.

Last edited by Leynos - 5 days ago

Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:

As I figured. It's just a PR move. https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/1fzc6c0/senior_animator_will_waltz_who_used_to_work_at/
Former animator who worked there for 13 years recommends no one work there. For years not heard good things about the work environment there. Phil swept that sexual harassment case under the rug some years back.

Lol. I'm sorry but this dude sounds bitter as fuck, when even r/Halo is suspicious, the most angry group of Halo fans...

"I miss the days when you were there with us earlier on. Bonnie, Chris, Josh, Kiki, everyone was so fun to work with."

Oh so he enjoyed working with the old leadership, Bonnie Ross, Josh Holmes, Kiki Wolfkill.

"Imagine telling a studio (loudly) almost daily how to succeed for 13 years, 7 of them were spent educating a clueless executive team (with a purely corporate publishing background and no real hands-on coding or art and in some cases, gaming, experience) how to actually make something"

Then he proceeds to slag them off, Lol. (And seemingly thinks he has the answers to everything).

Like this is how bad it got: they released the game without an industry standard in-game player reporting feature. It came down to me seeing a female streamer being harassed by male gamers while she played and I looked for a feature I just assumed the UX team would have built a robust version of. Nope, nothing. So me, an animator, had to lead this charge and literally design the UX wireframes for the in-game reporting feature POST LAUNCH and then force Jerry Hook into a meeting in which he basically lambasted me for taking on the work myself (even though we basically had nothing going on except the occasional bug to fix)

Jerry Hook is no longer at the studio.

Then he makes claims about Pierre, who has been Studio Head for exactly 2 years now, Halo Studio's new leadership is literally the leadership that fixed TMCC and added a ton of content to it. Pierre was Studio Head for exactly 4-5 months before Will Waltz was laid off, hardly enough time to make such a damning comment on his leadership when Will himself says that he "basically had nothing going on"

He comes across as a very bitter ex-employee who is full of himself and wants to ride on the current low-hanging "bash 343" fruit, a professional in the industry does not go to Linkedin and publicly call people "cancer" or make weird "#SaveHalo" posts and the fact that he seems fond of the old leadership is a bit concerning too, 6 years ago he was posting about how 343 is a wonderful place to work for, I don't doubt the leadership was a mess but it feels like he's angrily blaming Pierre for him being laid off after 12 years of working there.

Pierre likely has more actual gaming development experience than Bonnie Ross too so he's no clueless executive and it's weird he talks about as if Pierre was in the leadership team with Bonnie/Frankie/Etc before Halo Infinite launched (he was not). He only joined Halo Infinite and thus 343's core team in 2020? as Head of Production for Multiplayer, a year before the game released, after that messy E3 reveal and a messy development.

If Will was telling Pierre to switch to Unreal Engine then, firstly, it wouldn't have been Pierre's decision, secondly, if Pierre told him to shut up then he would have been right to do so because it would have literally been impossible for Pierre to switch Infinite to Unreal Engine 5 a year before Infinite released, Lmao.

Pierre was on the MCC team before joining the core team in 2020 and MCC used Unreal Engine but switching to Unreal Engine for everything is a huge task and the fact that this dude thinks Pierre didn't make a massive decision like that in 5 months of him having the ability to even make that decision means Pierre is cancer is a bit ridiculous.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - 5 days ago

Pierre literally led the team that fixed Master Chief Collection and is the only thing that all Halo fans think is brilliant (now) but didn't consider brilliant before Pierre took over and sorted that disaster out, not only sorted it out but added even more content to it and supported it for years (for free, I.E. no MTXs) and then he was shoved onto Infinite only a year before it launched.

It's frustrating, people literally got what they wanted, almost the entire leadership has been canned, half of the studio was fired, it is objectively like 50%+ an entirely new studio now just from the core developers alone and the leadership is like 80% new? Pierre has been Head of 343i for 2 whole years which is nothing in videogame development time.

How about instead of being so eager to rush to doom them already, we instead just wait and see? I honestly don't know what people want sometimes, they want change and they get change but then they still rush to say "nah fuck em" Lol. It's so easy to be pessimistic, not even saying to be optimistic but there's little reason to be pessimistic instead of just "no feelings"

Reason I'm optimistic is because Pierre proved his leadership skills with MCC already.

The constant mentioning of Bungie is funny considering how many veteran Halo employees have left Bungie also but that's not a problem. However, one of the veteran Bungie employees is currently being blamed for all of Bungie's issues (Pete Parsons) so u'know, the old guard isn't always great or rather, doesn't always remain great, stop holding "veterans" up to God-like status and dismissing anyone new, Lol.

Also Unreal Engine 4 was well known as being bad for open-world titles, Josh Sawyer actually had a post about this once when defending Creation Engine, he mentioned how Unreal Engine 4 didn't have a thing called partitioning which helps a lot when creating an open world, Unreal Engine 5 does have partitioning but Unreal Engine 5 released 4 months after Halo Infinite.

It would totally be understandable if Unreal Engine 4 didn't make sense for Halo back then, especially Halo Infinite, but now Unreal Engine 5 with its upgrades does make sense for Halo, especially if they continue with the open-world approach. What we can say for certain is it definitely made absolutely zero sense to switch Halo Infinite to Unreal Engine a year or two before release, Lol.

I have no doubt the previous leadership had issues (despite this guy oddly praising them and then blasting them at the same time) but his criticisms on Pierre come across as not making much sense, Pierre would have had no say in making Infinite on Unreal Engine 4. Pierre was not in the leadership team until 2022. Pierre is known as the guy who fixed MCC. Pierre didn't join Infinite's team until a year or two before its release.

Pierre IS the guy who decided to switch to Unreal Engine...Bit weird to blast him for not switching to Unreal Engine (when he didn't even have the ability to do so) and ignore that he is the guy who has switched to Unreal Engine (within 2 years of being in the position to do so). Probably more like ~1.5 years considering it would have taken some months to make that Unreal Engine 5 demo.

I'll give Pierre a chance to actually release a single game under his leadership first before rushing to blast him for things that don't make sense. I don't believe this dude can make an fully accurate comment on his leadership after experiencing it for only 4-5 months when Pierre was in the middle of reshuffling the studio and then being told to layoff hundreds of employees.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - 5 days ago

Meh. Loved playing Halo back in the Bungie days. it's been a very lackluster mediocre franchise since 343, so can't say im particularly excited, kinda don't care what happens to Halo at this point.



twintail said:
Azzanation said:

Being Bespoke doesn't make it good. Majority of games share alot of tech, Havok, Wwise etc.

It's about finding the best engine for the job, not weather it's internal or external. 

Game engines are also modified for specific games. The Coalition modified and enhance the Unreal Engines to make Gears of War.

Why did you leave out Switch 2 port? If it's getting a port to PS, it will most likely come to everything. If they choose to port it.

Whether the internal engine is good or not for the job doesn't change that's it's still disappointing that there are less internal engines going around. 

And I left out Switch 2 because I just didn't type it out. Naturally they'll port to whatever they can.

Depends, if Internal engines arent as reliable as 3rd party engines and the game suffers for it, than its actually a good thing that devs can use proven tech and master whats reliable than waste resources on training and building engines we don't know will work correctly. 

It doesnt bother me what engine they use, aslong as the game comes out correct and at the developers standards.