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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2024 US Presidential Election

the-pi-guy on 14 September 2024
IkePoR said:

Would you look at that - more Trump derangement.  You know, for people who hate "sandwich A" so much, you sure do like talking about it.

Now, back to my statement: I've found it difficult to meet one American that says they're having a better time over the last four years verses the prior four. You didn't address this, many leftists don't either.  

When I ask why they'd vote for Kamala, there's lots of platitudes(check) and diverting(check), before finally falling on "Trump's just x."(check) No policy they like or often even know about the candidate chosen for them, no honest fandom for their candidate, no moral reasoning for their candidate. They just hate the other guy.(check, check, check) 

I see this continues to be the case on these forums.  How disappointing.

Trump Derangement is the laziest excuse. It couldn't be that they have a genuine reason to dislike someone, they must be crazy. 

Why are you so deranged about Kamala?

It's a disingenuous claim. 

>You didn't address this, many leftists don't either

People do address this. Most of the things that have gotten worse are a direct result of things that have nothing to do with this administration. A lot of them are the result of the covid shutdowns that happened during Trump's presidency. There's other factors like the Russia Ukraine invasion, are you blaming that on Biden?

People do address this, and rather than even discussing the reasons, whether you agree with them or not, you handwave them away as if the people are just lazy and deranged.

How about trying to have an honest conversation?

>No policy they like or often even know about the candidate chosen for them

And yet 3 sentences later, you are giving credit to someone for giving policies they like. Which is it? 

>no honest fandom for their candidate, no moral reasoning for their candidate. They just hate the other guy

Fandom isn't a good thing. You shouldn't love your candidate to the point of calling yourself a fan.

You should be critical of any and all politicians. 

IkePoR said:

Hey Weincom look, someone else who hates sandwich A talking about sandwich A!  Again!  At least they actually shared some policy this time.

So 1. the potential for a progressive supreme court, 2. federal abortion rights and 3. IDRs. In other words - control, hedonism and free stuff.  Doesn't sound very American to me but I'm digressing.

1. Is there hard evidence to a better country under a progressive ruling supreme court? Compared to what?

2. Why ought we prescribe federal abortion freedom when America is far below replacement rate?

3. At what cost?  Is there a number on the lack of accountability?

1. Yes because progressives are pushing for more freedom. 

2. Why do you want to force women to give birth? Why is replacement rate more important to you than the individual freedom to make the choice?

3. What is the cost for someone to think it's okay to better our nation? We happily spend many trillions of dollars on wasteful military projects and there's never any accountability for those. Why is it so unthinkable to spend 1.5 trillion on something that helps people.  Money that has already been spent to be clear. Forgiving the student loan debt has no impact on the federal debt, because it's already part of it. 



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Ryuu96 on 14 September 2024

Fuck Democrats for a virus not created or started by them, a war not started by them, fictional open-borders and trying to pass a bipartisan border security bill which was scuttled by Donald Trump.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 14 September 2024

IkePoR on 14 September 2024
rapsuperstar31 said:

You're ridiculous, you keep ignoring the covid caused inflation.  That is the only reason people don't feel better than they did 4 years ago.  It doesn't matter if it was Obama, Trump, or Biden, my stocks increased substantially under all 3.  Covid happened under Trump, the lock downs, no toilet paper and all that pure hell and that was under Trump.  Your damn right my life is significantly better than it was 4 years ago today when we couldn't find toilet paper, and million of Americans died.  Millions of American families no longer speak to each other, parents and their kids just broke up over Trumps complete control over them and the lack of empathy that parents all of a sudden had.  Republicans refused to seat a supreme court member for a whole year during Obama's last year because republicans controlled the Senate and said the new president deserved to seat them.  The same thing happened to Trump a few months before the election and the same republican controlled senate said screw you Democrats we are seating a supreme court justice in the next few months.  The Supreme court justice Trump installed took away Roe vs Wade.  Without Trump Roe vs Wade doesn't get overturned.  Since getting overturned states are making abortion illegal, and women are bleeding to death because it is illegal to get an abortion now in all case even if they were raped or if the baby isn't gong to survive and it will kill the mother.  Worse the states will arrest you if you try to go to another state to get an abortion.  Million and millions of Americans hate each other now, and it's because of Trump.  The peace of mind Biden provided to everyone's mental health is absolutely better than it was under Trump.  Under Trump these racists maga's felt emboldened to beat up random Asian people or immigrants on the street like they did when Trump.  That died down while Biden lead us.  Under Trump, thousands of his minions decided to storm the capital and try to install Trump as the president illegally.  Trump lied about an election he lost by 8 some million votes, and tried his best to steal the election/job 81 million Americans fired him from.  Is America better off than it was 4 years ago, 100% in every single way except the increase in costs that you see everywhere...everywhere not just America!

This is the second time you've responded to my post, and for a second time in this thread, I am misquoted.  I see now why you leftists all misquote Trump constantly.

Once more, here's my post. It is literally, the very first sentence.  Do you think you could stop sperging too before reading what I actually said?



"You should be banned. Youre clearly flaming the president and even his brother who you know nothing about. Dont be such a partisan hack"

Ryuu96 on 14 September 2024
rapsuperstar31 said:
IkePoR said:

-Snip-

Torillian said:

-Snip-

-Snip-

You're ridiculous, you keep ignoring the covid caused inflation.  That is the only reason people don't feel better than they did 4 years ago.  It doesn't matter if it was Obama, Trump, or Biden, my stocks increased substantially under all 3.  Covid happened under Trump, the lock downs, no toilet paper and all that pure hell and that was under Trump.  Your damn right my life is significantly better than it was 4 years ago today when we couldn't find toilet paper, and million of Americans died.  Millions of American families no longer speak to each other, parents and their kids just broke up over Trumps complete control over them and the lack of empathy that parents all of a sudden had.  Republicans refused to seat a supreme court member for a whole year during Obama's last year because republicans controlled the Senate and said the new president deserved to seat them.  The same thing happened to Trump a few months before the election and the same republican controlled senate said screw you Democrats we are seating a supreme court justice in the next few months.  The Supreme court justice Trump installed took away Roe vs Wade.  Without Trump Roe vs Wade doesn't get overturned.  Since getting overturned states are making abortion illegal, and women are bleeding to death because it is illegal to get an abortion now in all case even if they were raped or if the baby isn't gong to survive and it will kill the mother.  Worse the states will arrest you if you try to go to another state to get an abortion.  Million and millions of Americans hate each other now, and it's because of Trump.  The peace of mind Biden provided to everyone's mental health is absolutely better than it was under Trump.  Under Trump these racists maga's felt emboldened to beat up random Asian people or immigrants on the street like they did when Trump.  That died down while Biden lead us.  Under Trump, thousands of his minions decided to storm the capital and try to install Trump as the president illegally.  Trump lied about an election he lost by 8 some million votes, and tried his best to steal the election/job 81 million Americans fired him from.  Is America better off than it was 4 years ago, 100% in every single way except the increase in costs that you see everywhere...everywhere not just America!

Agreed with everything that you said but I wish it was broken up with paragraphs

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 14 September 2024

zorg1000 on 14 September 2024
IkePoR said:
zorg1000 said:

But isn’t that true in a sense? Covid was the catalyst, without it you don’t get the economy shutting down which means you don’t get trillions in stimulus/safety net spending or the supply chain disruptions or widespread labor shortages which means you don’t get a surge in inflation when things open back up which means you don’t get a massive increase in interest rates or corporations using inflation as a cover to raise prices beyond what was necessary.

As for your original statement about people saying they were better off 4 years ago, people are stupid and don’t know what they are talking about. 4 years ago was 2020, we were in the worst pandemic in over a century which killed millions of people and forced the economy to shutdown. People had to quarantine, people lost their jobs, businesses closed down, kids couldn’t go to school, poverty increased, food insecurity increased, crime increased. It was also the year of George Floyd protests/riots, the most significant civil unrest since the 60s. How were people better off four years ago?

While I will concede that most of inflation is covid related in some form including most of your examples, Putin invading Ukraine and America's open border are not.

That would be a great retort if that was my original statement.  

Literally the first sentence.

You couldn't even be bothered to look at it before sperging about how stupid people are.

I did read it, you’re saying you find it odd that people are voting Kamala despite saying they were better off 4 years ago because they hate Trump so much.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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the-pi-guy on 14 September 2024
IkePoR said:

While I will concede that most of inflation is covid related in some form including most of your examples, Putin invading Ukraine and America's open border are not.

That would be a great retort if that was my original statement.  

Literally the first sentence.

You couldn't even be bothered to look at it before sperging about how stupid people are.

Show some evidence that the open border is causing inflation.

Or even some kind of logical explanation on how it could.

IkePoR said:

I'm happy to engage with this, not trying to be dismissive.  Sorry you feel that way.

1&2. I hope you don't mind but I'm combining these as they mostly refer to the same end.  First, would you say you're anti-natalist? Second, if contraception is fine and we have more reliable means of it than ever, why are we fighting for the most barbaric, monstrous form of it? It's not being snippy, it hedonism. Third, is the freedom of the baby we're aborting less valuable than the mothers?  Because that would be very dangerous rhetoric.  

3. You would agree with me that SAVE is an IDR correct?  And it has a cost attached to it correct?  I'm not sure what you want from me here.

>would you say you're anti-natalist? 

Most pro-choice people are not. Pro-choice is not about being anti-fetus/anti-baby.

>why are we fighting for the most barbaric, monstrous form of it?

Because sometimes abortion is a life saving procedure.

And the exception to the mother's life, is often too late. Because even if the doctor knows that it is going to be life threatening, they can't do anything about it until it is actively threatening their life, and at that point it's too late. 

>Third, is the freedom of the baby we're aborting less valuable than the mothers?

We don't force people to use their bodies in any other situation.

Would you be happy if the government passed a law so that if a 6 year old has a bad kidney and needed yours, that the government could forcibly take yours?

There are no other situations where we say it's okay to use someone else's body for something. People have to consent, even dead people have to consent to allowing their body to be used for organs for life saving procedures, by consenting before they die.

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 14 September 2024

Torillian on 14 September 2024
IkePoR said:
Torillian said:

Asking for specific policies so that you can be snippy and dismissive about it. Wow.....shocker. 

1. More progressive supreme court tends to do things I agree with. For instance the progressives were against presidential criminal immunity and would have left roe v wade in tact. 

2. I value freedom over natalism. Just like I think it's ok that people can use contraception even if we're far below replacement rate. You want people to have more kids figure out how to convince them to do so other than taking away their freedom to not have them. 

3. I specified the SAVE plan. Google it and we can talk about it. Save me the platitudes. 

Any policies on the other end you like or is this just a way for you to be shitty about what other people are trying to accomplish?

Also, you mention "no moral reasoning for their candidate". What do you call saying that the other person is immoral so you want Kamala? Sounds like moral reasoning to me. One can hate Trump and still have perfectly valid reasons not to want him to be president again outside of that hatred. Like that he tried to ignore the results of the 2020 election and stay in power anyway. Can you pretend for a second you actually give a shit about any of these discussions and contend with what Trump did connected to Jan 6th? Why isn't that a good enough reason not to want to vote for him even if the price of grapes is higher? 

I'm happy to engage with this, not trying to be dismissive.  Sorry you feel that way.

1&2. I hope you don't mind but I'm combining these as they mostly refer to the same end.  First, would you say you're anti-natalist? Second, if contraception is fine and we have more reliable means of it than ever, why are we fighting for the most barbaric, monstrous form of it? It's not being snippy, it hedonism. Third, is the freedom of the baby we're aborting less valuable than the mothers?  Because that would be very dangerous rhetoric.  

3. You would agree with me that SAVE is an IDR correct?  And it has a cost attached to it correct?  I'm not sure what you want from me here.

1&2.

If you think Abortion is bad morally then just say that rather than giving me bullshit about replacement rates. I'm pro reproductive freedom, I have two kids but I don't have any desire to force others to have them just because I want to boost the replacement rate. 

It is being snippy because it has nothing to do with my position. Here I'll show you:

"Oh ok so you are anti-freedom and anti-education. Doesn't sound very American to me." Now what did those two statements add to the discussion other than being snippy little bullshit? Start treating others with respect and maybe they'll take the time to answer your snarky question in just the way you want while you ignore any questions you don't want to talk about (Jan 6th). 

I'm fighting for people to get the choice to abort if they feel they need it. We can talk about limitations on this as I'd be fine with limitations similar to the previous Roe v Wade viability standard, but an abortion ban after 6 weeks is ludicrous. 

The baby doesn't have any freedoms to worry about as it has no consciousness. In the contest between the freedoms of a conscious being and the hypothetical freedoms of a being that will have consciousness later I lean towards the currently conscious being. 

In the case of a raped 10 year old are you going to make them take the baby to term? I'm willing to bite the bullet on my end and say that before viability I don't think there are any restrictions on why one gets an abortion. Are you willing to bite the bullet on your end? 

3.

SAVE is an IDR, it is not "free stuff". Here are the costs associated with is via the CBO https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2023-03/58983-IDR.pdf 
I think those costs are fine because IDR's are an important part of giving people without the means to pay for college a way to get a degree and improve their earning potential over their lifetime (the American dream). 



...

IkePoR on 14 September 2024
the-pi-guy said:
IkePoR said:

Would you look at that - more Trump derangement.  You know, for people who hate "sandwich A" so much, you sure do like talking about it.

Now, back to my statement: I've found it difficult to meet one American that says they're having a better time over the last four years verses the prior four. You didn't address this, many leftists don't either.  

When I ask why they'd vote for Kamala, there's lots of platitudes(check) and diverting(check), before finally falling on "Trump's just x."(check) No policy they like or often even know about the candidate chosen for them, no honest fandom for their candidate, no moral reasoning for their candidate. They just hate the other guy.(check, check, check) 

I see this continues to be the case on these forums.  How disappointing.

Trump Derangement is the laziest excuse. It couldn't be that they have a genuine reason to dislike someone, they must be crazy. 

Why are you so deranged about Kamala?

It's a disingenuous claim. 

>You didn't address this, many leftists don't either

People do address this. Most of the things that have gotten worse are a direct result of things that have nothing to do with this administration. A lot of them are the result of the covid shutdowns that happened during Trump's presidency. There's other factors like the Russia Ukraine invasion, are you blaming that on Biden?

People do address this, and rather than even discussing the reasons, whether you agree with them or not, you handwave them away as if the people are just lazy and deranged.

How about trying to have an honest conversation?

>No policy they like or often even know about the candidate chosen for them

And yet 3 sentences later, you are giving credit to someone for giving policies they like. Which is it? 

>no honest fandom for their candidate, no moral reasoning for their candidate. They just hate the other guy

Fandom isn't a good thing. You shouldn't love your candidate to the point of calling yourself a fan.

You should be critical of any and all politicians. 

IkePoR said:

Hey Weincom look, someone else who hates sandwich A talking about sandwich A!  Again!  At least they actually shared some policy this time.

So 1. the potential for a progressive supreme court, 2. federal abortion rights and 3. IDRs. In other words - control, hedonism and free stuff.  Doesn't sound very American to me but I'm digressing.

1. Is there hard evidence to a better country under a progressive ruling supreme court? Compared to what?

2. Why ought we prescribe federal abortion freedom when America is far below replacement rate?

3. At what cost?  Is there a number on the lack of accountability?

1. Yes because progressives are pushing for more freedom. 

2. Why do you want to force women to give birth? Why is replacement rate more important to you than the individual freedom to make the choice?

3. What is the cost for someone to think it's okay to better our nation? We happily spend many trillions of dollars on wasteful military projects and there's never any accountability for those. Why is it so unthinkable to spend 1.5 trillion on something that helps people.  Money that has already been spent to be clear. Forgiving the student loan debt has no impact on the federal debt, because it's already part of it. 

It's not all disingenuous, most people in this thread are constantly berating Trump's character and policies, yet I see only Ryuu, a non-American, genuinely excited for his would be candidate.  Very classic whataboutism but I haven't said an unkind word about Kamala so... wouldn't that mean you're being disingenuous? 

Covid can't really be blamed on anyone, realistically.  I also don't blame Biden for Putin either, he would have done what he did if anyone was in power - except Trump.  He's invaded during every presidency for over 30 years except Trumps.

Torillian was the first and so far still the only one.  Kudos to them.

That's a good point - my point, even. What do you think of her policies?

1. Okay, compared to what?  What hard evidence do you have?  Can you give context for the use of "freedom" here?  

2. Can you answer my question?

3. Are you suggesting imposing long term ramifications to the tax payer is harmless? What true benefit is an institution that buries it's clients in debt for a degree that nearly half of them don't use, that later have to be bailed out by those more responsible?



"You should be banned. Youre clearly flaming the president and even his brother who you know nothing about. Dont be such a partisan hack"

the-pi-guy on 14 September 2024
IkePoR said:

It's not all disingenuous, most people in this thread are constantly berating Trump's character and policies, yet I see only Ryuu, a non-American, genuinely excited for his would be candidate.  Very classic whataboutism but I haven't said an unkind word about Kamala so... wouldn't that mean you're being disingenuous?

Yes, that was my point. I was intentionally being disingenuous.

>constantly berating Trump's character and policies

That's not disingenuous, and it's not Trump derangement. If you believe someone to be actively harmful, it doesn't matter if you're not excited about the other candidate. Neutral is better than bad. 

IkePoR said:

Covid can't really be blamed on anyone, realistically.  I also don't blame Biden for Putin either, he would have done what he did if anyone was in power - except Trump.  He's invaded during every presidency for over 30 years except Trumps.

I'm glad we agree on this.

IkePoR said:

That's a good point - my point, even. What do you think of her policies?

I'm going to vote for the person who thinks climate change is a real problem, and will make plans to do something about it. 

IkePoR said:

1. Okay, compared to what?  What hard evidence do you have?  Can you give context for the use of "freedom" here?  

2. Can you answer my question?

3. Are you suggesting imposing long term ramifications to the tax payer is harmless? What true benefit is an institution that buries it's clients in debt for a degree that nearly half of them don't use, that later have to be bailed out by those more responsible?

1. Reproductive rights is a big one.

2. I did. Personal freedom matters more than the replacement rate. 

3. You are missing the fact that it's already the tax payer burden. 



Ryuu96 on 14 September 2024

Abortion is not a decision taken lightly, it can often be both a physically and mentally draining experience, nobody takes pleasure in having to go through that experience, people are not "pro-abortion" in the sense that Republicans claim but "pro-choice" as the fact remains that it is their body, their choice, we do not believe in controlling women and taking away their rights.

Forcing a woman who was raped to carry her baby to term is fucking sick. Forcing them to carry a baby to term that they don't want and can't look after is shitty too. Republicans who are "pro-life" largely don't give a shit about what happens to the baby afterwards, if they did then they'd all be heavily adopting considering the amount of unwanted babies that already exist in the system going years without being adopted.

As already pointed out as well, abortion saves lives in many cases too, a complete abortion ban has the opposite effect, they in fact put lives in danger, they force people to carry to term unviable pregnancies that put women's lives in danger, they force desperate women into desperately unsafe situations in efforts to get abortions and severely damage a woman's mental health.

And yes, I consider a woman's life more important than a foetus before it even has consciousness.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 14 September 2024