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Forums - Politics Discussion - Attempted assassination on Trump

roymans said:
EricHiggin said:

Assuming the media was honest about what happened to start I guess. With recent headlines like Trump fell and was helped off stage by the SS, I can see why some amount of Americans may not really care at all. At least until they found out what was really going on. Then they certainly should care.

Americans wouldn't care about an innocent spectator getting gunned down though? Doesn't that go directly against the point you made prior, about innocent people being gunned down by police who made mistakes and how much of a problem that is, especially for certain demographics who have to deal with it? In both circumstances potential lives are at risk, so I don't see why Americans would care about one situation but not the other.

Uh no, it doesn't go against my point. how often do you hear about police being fired or prosecuted for a wrongful shooting ?

Not that often, but that's just based on what I personally have heard. How much the Americans hear from their own media I couldn't say for sure.

But when it comes to certain occurrences that get big media coverage, like the cop kneeling on GF, look at what that led to for all law enforcement. I don't see why the SS taking out an innocent civilian at a rally wouldn't cause huge outrage and upset the public, and like most things with Trump, would be directed at Trump.



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EricHiggin said:

-The way most of the public see's this is kinda in a statute of limitations sorta deal but in a political manner. If the left really cared about bringing justice to Trump they would've gone after him immediately after Biden took power. The fact they waited until the 2024 election season tells everyone it's just a ploy for the Dems to keep power. They don't really care about what Trump did, if he did it, so nobody really cares. The left had their chance years ago but blew it by waiting. 

They didn't wait though. The classified documents investigation (arguably the biggest case) started in 2022 (after repeated requests to return the documents in 2021) and he was indicted in 2023. Then Trump appointee Judge Cannon slowed the case down to a crawl in order to push it to after the election. 

Trump was also found liable for sexual assault in early 2023 and arraigned in the hush money case in early 2023. Even then, these investigations take time, especially with all of the legal questions and appeals involved. If your standard is that Trump needed to be in jail in 2022 for any of this to be legit, you simply don't understand how any of this works. 

The "Dems waited until 2024" talking point shows a wanton disregard for reality...



sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

-The way most of the public see's this is kinda in a statute of limitations sorta deal but in a political manner. If the left really cared about bringing justice to Trump they would've gone after him immediately after Biden took power. The fact they waited until the 2024 election season tells everyone it's just a ploy for the Dems to keep power. They don't really care about what Trump did, if he did it, so nobody really cares. The left had their chance years ago but blew it by waiting. 

They didn't wait though. The classified documents investigation (arguably the biggest case) started in 2022 (after repeated requests to return the documents in 2021) and he was indicted in 2023. Then Trump appointee Judge Cannon slowed the case down to a crawl in order to push it to after the election. 

Trump was also found liable for sexual assault in early 2023 and arraigned in the hush money case in early 2023. Even then, these investigations take time, especially with all of the legal questions and appeals involved. If your standard is that Trump needed to be in jail in 2022 for any of this to be legit, you simply don't understand how any of this works. 

The "Dems waited until 2024" talking point shows a wanton disregard for reality...

How many people believe the charges are legit to begin with, and how many people believe the judge/jury won't be overly biased? If you don't have the majority to start with then you've got one hell of an uphill battle. Even worse if they believe that because of your history when it comes to accusations.

How many accusations and charges have been brought against Trump overall in total now, because most people have lost count there are so many. Why weren't any of them brought sooner, like what could have been, non politically, prior to 2020, 2016, etc? Trump already explained this type of reasoning to everyone in the 2016 debate. It's the same reason why Hillary and the rest of the politicians wouldn't change the tax codes and fix all the loopholes. Those exist because they and their backers want them to, and they aren't going to change them unless it somehow can benefit them.

Too many people now realize it's all about politics and that doesn't fly when it comes to the justice system. If you want to prosecute someone legitimately asap, then they're fully behind you, no matter how long the cases take, but if you want to use questionable charges, or make up brand new first time ever charges, or wait to bring the case forward until it's useful politically, then nobody is going to care, and many don't anymore.

Part of the problem was a disregard of reality, and that problem is slowly going away.



EricHiggin said:

How many people believe the charges are legit to begin with, and how many people believe the judge/jury won't be overly biased? If you don't have the majority to start with then you've got one hell of an uphill battle. Even worse if they believe that because of your history when it comes to accusations.

How many accusations and charges have been brought against Trump overall in total now, because most people have lost count there are so many. Why weren't any of them brought sooner, like what could have been, non politically, prior to 2020, 2016, etc? Trump already explained this type of reasoning to everyone in the 2016 debate. It's the same reason why Hillary and the rest of the politicians wouldn't change the tax codes and fix all the loopholes. Those exist because they and their backers want them to, and they aren't going to change them unless it somehow can benefit them.

Too many people now realize it's all about politics and that doesn't fly when it comes to the justice system. If you want to prosecute someone legitimately asap, then they're fully behind you, no matter how long the cases take, but if you want to use questionable charges, or make up brand new first time ever charges, or wait to bring the case forward until it's useful politically, then nobody is going to care, and many don't anymore.

Part of the problem was a disregard of reality, and that problem is slowly going away.

Classified documents case: Crime committed in 2021
Capitol Riots case: Crime committed in 2021
Georgia Election Interference case: Crime committed in 2021
Hush money case: Crime committed in 2016

Please explain to me the timeline in which these crimes could have been brought to court without being "about politics"



There's always an excuse.

When gas prices went up, it was Biden's fault. 

When gas prices went back down, it was still Biden's fault. "He's manipulating the prices to improve his presidential approval". 

Trump has been accused of crimes, decades before coming into politics. He got sued for sexual assault in the 90's, and he's bragged about it. He's not a white saint who has never done anything, who just recently starting getting accused of things. 

Power corrupts or at least, attracts corrupt people. 

Conservatives have accused plenty of Democrats of crimes in office. Are those to be excused based on "how convenient it would be for the opposition" or do we look at the facts (you know what the justice system is supposed to be built on)? 



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EricHiggin said:

How many people believe the charges are legit to begin with, and how many people believe the judge/jury won't be overly biased? If you don't have the majority to start with then you've got one hell of an uphill battle. Even worse if they believe that because of your history when it comes to accusations.

A court of law is about presenting evidence.
Thus your belief in it's intrinsic legitimacy is thus irrelevant.

The Jury also consisted of republicans who also voted against Trump... Because again... The Evidence was empirical and overwhelming.

EricHiggin said:

How many accusations and charges have been brought against Trump overall in total now, because most people have lost count there are so many. Why weren't any of them brought sooner, like what could have been, non politically, prior to 2020, 2016, etc? Trump already explained this type of reasoning to everyone in the 2016 debate. It's the same reason why Hillary and the rest of the politicians wouldn't change the tax codes and fix all the loopholes. Those exist because they and their backers want them to, and they aren't going to change them unless it somehow can benefit them.

Trump uses delay tactics to delay legal proceedings... And is pushing hard to have them after the election when he has power and can influence things in his favor.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/16/nyregion/donald-trump-trial-delay-strategy.html

As for the Tax codes... Has anything really changed for the US citizens? As far as I was aware, most of the tax breaks went to the rich and big business with the push for trickle-down economics.

But we also need to remember that tax breaks add to the deficit and Trump added a significant amount to the debt already without the Tax breaks, the US needs a more fiscally responsible leader... Trump and Biden are both not competent at it.

Things get a little difficult when it's a sovereign currency when you have intimate control of supply/demand... And during Trumps years, he printed a ton of money to pay for his schemes and to combat COVID, which devalues the purchasing power of the dollar, which then causes inflation.
And then of course, Biden has to deal with that fallout, but he has failed to reign it in.

EricHiggin said:

Too many people now realize it's all about politics and that doesn't fly when it comes to the justice system. If you want to prosecute someone legitimately asap, then they're fully behind you, no matter how long the cases take, but if you want to use questionable charges, or make up brand new first time ever charges, or wait to bring the case forward until it's useful politically, then nobody is going to care, and many don't anymore.

Considering Trump has a history of threatening others, that may be the reason why people don't come forth sooner.

Trump is a convicted corrupt criminal at the end of the day.

EricHiggin said:

Part of the problem was a disregard of reality, and that problem is slowly going away.

This is the Trump reality distortion field in full swing.

Trump will "Claim" something constantly until people start to believe it... Even when it's literally a blatant lie.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

How many people believe the charges are legit to begin with, and how many people believe the judge/jury won't be overly biased? If you don't have the majority to start with then you've got one hell of an uphill battle. Even worse if they believe that because of your history when it comes to accusations.

How many accusations and charges have been brought against Trump overall in total now, because most people have lost count there are so many. Why weren't any of them brought sooner, like what could have been, non politically, prior to 2020, 2016, etc? Trump already explained this type of reasoning to everyone in the 2016 debate. It's the same reason why Hillary and the rest of the politicians wouldn't change the tax codes and fix all the loopholes. Those exist because they and their backers want them to, and they aren't going to change them unless it somehow can benefit them.

Too many people now realize it's all about politics and that doesn't fly when it comes to the justice system. If you want to prosecute someone legitimately asap, then they're fully behind you, no matter how long the cases take, but if you want to use questionable charges, or make up brand new first time ever charges, or wait to bring the case forward until it's useful politically, then nobody is going to care, and many don't anymore.

Part of the problem was a disregard of reality, and that problem is slowly going away.

Classified documents case: Crime committed in 2021
Capitol Riots case: Crime committed in 2021
Georgia Election Interference case: Crime committed in 2021
Hush money case: Crime committed in 2016

Please explain to me the timeline in which these crimes could have been brought to court without being "about politics"

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. Where's the outrage and Biden case? It's ok to take confidential doc's just as long as you don't get caught, and if you do, then as long as you give them back without a fuss then no harm done? Will Biden ever get charged later on? Trump case was thrown out wasn't it? 

-This one doesn't count I believe. Trump was charged with something as to the Capitol Hill event that went through the legal system? This was dealt with by the politicians through Government was it not? Unless I'm missing something, they didn't charge Trump with anything legally.

-This one is borderline but since President's have certain immunity it likely won't matter. That's not only a Trump thing at that point it's a Presidential thing. How many Presidents have done something while in office potentially worth being charged over? We all know why they never get charged later on.

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. People, especially rich elites, pay other people off to shut their mouths all the time, and nobody, even the elites, seem to care unless they can use it to their advantage at some point. It's also a sex related thing and Bill Clinton already normalized that kind of behavior. One candidate may have used money to hide something potentially damaging, while another may have used the intelligence agencies to hide something potentially damaging.

Can't have it both ways. It's either fairness and the rules apply to everyone equally, or they don't apply at all. More and more people see it that way.

Where's all the rest? Are there supposedly only 4 legit accusations out of them all, because out of those 4, only 1 is seen to potentially hold weight.



EricHiggin said:

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. Where's the outrage and Biden case? It's ok to take confidential doc's just as long as you don't get caught, and if you do, then as long as you give them back without a fuss then no harm done? Will Biden ever get charged later on? Trump case was thrown out wasn't it? 

A major point in US criminal law is intention. 

Evidence of intent makes a huge difference, depending on the crime. 

We have different levels of murder, depending on whether it was accidental, or whether it was something that was intentionally planned out. Many states even have differentiation between a "first degree murder", where it's planned, and "second degree murder", where it's heat of the moment.

Many crimes require intent. Accidentally starting a fire because you thought your cigarette was out, is treated differently from intentionally starting a fire to destroy a building.

"Making a fuss", lying about it, is a massive sign of intent. These differences you're trying to handwave away, are literally what US criminal law is built on. 

It was thrown out on questionable grounds. 

EricHiggin said:

-This one doesn't count I believe. Trump was charged with something as to the Capitol Hill event that went through the legal system? This was dealt with by the politicians through Government was it not? Unless I'm missing something, they didn't charge Trump with anything legally.

No, he was charged.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67656604/united-states-v-trump/

And no, that's not how it works. Politicians making a move to impeach someone doesn't override criminal law. 

EricHiggin said:

-This one is borderline but since President's have certain immunity it likely won't matter. That's not only a Trump thing at that point it's a Presidential thing. How many Presidents have done something while in office potentially worth being charged over? We all know why they never get charged later on.

Presidents should not have immunity. They didn't have immunity when these events happened.

Every president who has done something criminal in office should be charged for it. 

But also, where's the evidence that *other* presidents have done something like that? Just throwing out a hypothetical that other presidents could have done something else that could be charged for, isn't a defense. 

EricHiggin said:

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. People, especially rich elites, pay other people off to shut their mouths all the time, and nobody, even the elites, seem to care unless they can use it to their advantage at some point. It's also a sex related thing and Bill Clinton already normalized that kind of behavior. One candidate may have used money to hide something potentially damaging, while another may have used the intelligence agencies to hide something potentially damaging.

Plenty of people do care. 

Clinton did not pay someone off. There are a lot more regulations about how money is used. 



EricHiggin said:
sundin13 said:

Classified documents case: Crime committed in 2021
Capitol Riots case: Crime committed in 2021
Georgia Election Interference case: Crime committed in 2021
Hush money case: Crime committed in 2016

Please explain to me the timeline in which these crimes could have been brought to court without being "about politics"

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. Where's the outrage and Biden case? It's ok to take confidential doc's just as long as you don't get caught, and if you do, then as long as you give them back without a fuss then no harm done? Will Biden ever get charged later on? Trump case was thrown out wasn't it? 

-This one doesn't count I believe. Trump was charged with something as to the Capitol Hill event that went through the legal system? This was dealt with by the politicians through Government was it not? Unless I'm missing something, they didn't charge Trump with anything legally.

-This one is borderline but since President's have certain immunity it likely won't matter. That's not only a Trump thing at that point it's a Presidential thing. How many Presidents have done something while in office potentially worth being charged over? We all know why they never get charged later on.

-This one is questionable and nobody really cares. People, especially rich elites, pay other people off to shut their mouths all the time, and nobody, even the elites, seem to care unless they can use it to their advantage at some point. It's also a sex related thing and Bill Clinton already normalized that kind of behavior. One candidate may have used money to hide something potentially damaging, while another may have used the intelligence agencies to hide something potentially damaging.

Can't have it both ways. It's either fairness and the rules apply to everyone equally, or they don't apply at all. More and more people see it that way.

Where's all the rest? Are there supposedly only 4 legit accusations out of them all, because out of those 4, only 1 is seen to potentially hold weight.

1. Yes, it is ok to take documents as long as you give them back when asked. This has been the case for quite a few presidents as they leave office. Trump is unique in how he decided to hide and refused to give them back. It's pretty simple. Did you read that case? Trump's mindset here is really hard to understand, seemed like he felt entitled to these things to the point of criminality. 

2. The impeachment system is not how you decide criminality. In fact, many of the politicians who voted against impeachment said they did so because Trump was already out of office and so the correct punishment would be the legal system. Now when the  justice system is trying to do just that the tune has changed to "maybe presidents should have immunity". 

3. How many presidents have put together false groups of electors and called state officials to try to get them to change their election results? I think that's a pretty short list honestly. You can say "we all know why they weren't changed" but honestly wouldn't this fact pattern fit perfectly with Trump just being a uniquely criminal president? 

4. He was already found guilty of this one. It turns out it is actually illegal. Whether or not his new found presidential immunity will get him out of it is another question. 

Lastly, what other changes are you thinking of? There have always been 4 different cases to my knowledge that were criminal. There are separate civil cases but those have also already been finished and Trump lost them so seems like they probably hold weight. One was because he cooked his books in real estate and another because he raped someone a long time ago and defamed her when she talked about it. Again, all of which fits the fact pattern of just being a uniquely shitty and criminal president. 



...

Jumpin said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

Well they've certainly been pushing the issue.  The only groups that get preferential treatment based purely on things they don't control.  Forget gaming there's been a woman in charge of Star Wars with a sharp decline in merchandise sales, box office, and viewership during her entire tenure who continues to avoid being fired somehow.  Crazy I know

Glad you realize your posts look crazy.

You should probably talk to someone about that.

Well good to know you had no counter.  Destiny burner account?



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