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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS5's operating income already more than PS1, PS2, PS3 & PS4 combined.

Doctor_MG said:

This actually makes me mad. Sony is making more money than ever yet they still laid off a bunch of employees, including employees at Insomniac who, IMO, are basically keeping the PS5 afloat with first party releases. Take away all insomniac games from the PS5 and you have like half the amount of first party releases.

I'm really tired of companies doing this. Higher than ever profit and revenue but they still justify cost cutting measures as if they are essential. It's just greed at this point.

Not that I'm a fan of everything that they do, but this is the one area I respect Nintendo in more than any other videogame publisher.

Making more isn't a great metric.  Money is worth a lot less today.  Needs to be offset via inflation.  

In the 60s, 30k a year was an amazing salary.  Someone making 40k today isn't making more than someone who made 30k back in the 60s.

Edit

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your point.  I'm just saying the gap isn't as big as it first appears.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 01 June 2024

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EpicRandy said:

It depends on who you talk to but I don't view those discussions as hyperbolic. The issue is definitively there but it's not about the industry not being sustainable or profitable, it's specifically about profit margins.

The cost of doing business in this space has risen so much while the consumer pool has stagnated and despite the rise in game price profit margins are very low. Sony is strong but it has been stronger with the PS4 for sure and way more sustainable with it than it is with the PS5.

This slide from the presentation explains it better : 

Profit margins for 2022 and 2023 have been < 7%

This is an issue, it is literally what led Sony and the industry to cut expenses and let go of so many workers. 

Also going forward you can see see what Sony intends to do:

• Continued expansion of the installed base
(this would be hard to achieve as PS5 is tracking under PS4 so it is probably intended to be achieve through expansion on PC)

• Drive consistent revenue from Content, Services and Peripherals
(This makes me think the focus is much more on increasing monetization of content than increasing the amount of content, this can be seen through large investments in GAAS)

• Thoughtful investments in key innovation areas Studio Business Group
(Thoughtfull is the keyword here, security will be played bold/risky move will be avoided, no more studios acquisition for sure during the next 2 years)

• Strong release slate and ongoing execution of live service roadmap

• Expansion of franchise reach
(this screams PC release for sure)

• Continued financial discipline
(Expect more layoffs and/or closure. One thing is certain keeping the status quo in the way business is done in the console space is not an option. This is where the hyperbolic discussion comes in, but it is greatly subjective. I don't view discussions saying the industry needs to change/adapt to the current context as hyperbolic. It just is what it is an actors are adapting to it.)

• Early returns from past acquisitions and investments Profitability
(For the same reasons as they are avoiding bold/risky move, they stressing their recent bold/risky move to prove themselves quick)

• Agile and streamlined cost structure

• Further investments in efficiency

There's no way Sony is stronger in the PS4 generation compared to the PS5. For one, they are able to sell their hardware, software, and subscription services at higher prices. The latter especially ensures the PS5 to be more sustainable than the PS4. Not to mention, Sony has already projected that the PS5 will be their most profitable console, so the temporary decrease in their profit margins doesn't seem to be a major worry over at Sony.

As for the points you cited, it can be interpreted in more ways than one: 

- Continued expansion of the installed base: 
Increase the userbase of the PlayStation 5. Not sure how this would relate to PC as I don't see why Sony would classify their software sales as an install base. They also didn't mention a hypothetical PC launcher in the mid term that would fit this description. 

- Drive consistent revenue from Content, Services, Peripherals:
While live service is going to be a major factor, I wouldn't underestimate how much more profitable PlayStation Plus can be as a supplementary service, as well as many of their peripherals that dominate the charts. 

- Thoughtful investments in key innovation areas: 
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that there would be no studio acquisitions for sure. Buying smaller developers/support studios is not a major risk. I feel like this is related more to something like Audeze or Gaikai, specialized acquisitions that can help out a subset of SIE.

- Expansion of franchise reach: 
Could also mean more PlayStation Production films, toys, merchandise, or even theme parks that Sony has recently mentioned. 

- Continued financial discipline: 
I don't take this as changing the console business model significantly. If Sony was going to change the status quo, they wouldn't have reiterated their stance on their single player exclusives, once again. It could mean more surefire projects, safer acquisitions, less hiring, etc.



PotentHerbs said:

There's no way Sony is stronger in the PS4 generation compared to the PS5. For one, they are able to sell their hardware, software, and subscription services at higher prices. The latter especially ensures the PS5 to be more sustainable than the PS4. 

By strength, I was speaking of their ROI, those have dropped significantly over the last 2 years, and as PS4 support fades. Yes, they charge more per title and hardware but cost inflation has been brutal. That's why despite record revenue for 2022/2023 their profits are still significantly down.

PotentHerbs said:

Not to mention, Sony has already projected that the PS5 will be their most profitable console, so the temporary decrease in their profit margins doesn't seem to be a major worry over at Sony.

If this refers to the doc in the OP they were referring to PS5 by years and mixing in PS4 2020+ profits, if not, please add a source and check if they didn't use the same trick of "PS5 gen". Also, they defined the most profitable in absolute terms instead of a ratio over their investment, but it's the latter that would give them strength to garner investment into PlayStation not the former. And define "major worry" Cause Sony is doing studio closure, and layoffs while also increasing PC support, I can understand those moves if they react to a situation they worry about, if not then that's a mess. 

PotentHerbs said:

- Continued expansion of the installed base: 
Increase the userbase of the PlayStation 5. Not sure how this would relate to PC as I don't see why Sony would classify their software sales as an install base. They also didn't mention a hypothetical PC launcher in the mid term that would fit this description. 

You write here, for some reasons I thought consumer base in general but that said Playstation 5 is tracking under the PS4 right now, so if things continue this way the expansion in PS5 install base throughout the gen will result in a reduction of install base gen to gen.

PotentHerbs said:

- Drive consistent revenue from Content, Services, Peripherals:
While live service is going to be a major factor, I wouldn't underestimate how much more profitable PlayStation Plus can be as a supplementary service, as well as many of their peripherals that dominate the charts. 

I was focusing on the Content part with my previous post but I agree with your assessment for the Service front. The increase in peripheral revenue, IMO I'm not sure, it depends on what has driven those and who they were able to reach. PSVR 2 and PS portal sure have generated a lot of sales at their release but it remains to be seen if those sales will be sustained throughout the gen or if it can be replicated with other peripheral.

PotentHerbs said:

- Thoughtful investments in key innovation areas: 
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that there would be no studio acquisitions for sure. Buying smaller developers/support studios is not a major risk. I feel like this is related more to something like Audeze or Gaikai, specialized acquisitions that can help out a subset of SIE.

I think right now pretty much any risk is a major risk.

PotentHerbs said:

- Expansion of franchise reach: 
Could also mean more PlayStation Production films, toys, merchandise, or even theme parks that Sony has recently mentioned. 

I agree, I thought I added mention to those in an edit but it was lost somewhere.

PotentHerbs said:

- Continued financial discipline: 
I don't take this as changing the console business model significantly. If Sony was going to change the status quo, they wouldn't have reiterated their stance on their single player exclusives, once again. It could mean more surefire projects, safer acquisitions, less hiring, etc.

But they already have made significant changes, driving the most recent investment towards GAAS, and announcing more support for PC. Not to mention investments in GAAS are not surefire things they are high-risk high-rewards and there will probably be more failure than success there.

IMO some other upcoming changes will include:

  • Longer support for Gen 9 after the start of Gen 10.
  • Ps5 Pro / Gen 10 to avoid a subsidized model (sold at a loss)
  • Further improvement of PC support 


Gratulation :) Since all xbox-games will be released on PlayStation 5 in the future and GTA 6 will certainly break new records, it could be the best-selling PlayStation of all time. That's what I suspect.



Wman1996 said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Still on PS4 Pro myself and happy out. I see no reason to upgrade apart from Balduars gate 3 which I'm happy to wait on cause I know it'll not be surpassed in it's genre, this gen. Good to see it doing well, regardless but personally I'll whip up the best of the generation on the cheap when it's nearing it's end and I'll grab a price reduced PS5 pro Gotta wonder how many Pro users got stuck in the same boat.

Tough to say. Roughly 20 million or more Pro models were sold out of all the PS4s sold so I don't know how much impact it will have if a good amount of them don't get a PS5. And we don't know how many of them might already have a PS5. 

Unless PS6 takes until 2028, I don't see PS5 outselling PS4 even if it gets close. 

14 million/117 million PS4's sold were the Pro. Which is why I know the PS5 Pro won't boost sales much.



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The difference with Xbox is that they've achieved significant revenue growth without major acquisitions.



EpicRandy said:

Yes "generation" but not ecosystem, they count profit from PS4 ecosystem 2020+ toward PS5 gen which IMO was the vast majority of 2020/2021 profits and a large portion still of 2022/2023.

Also they mentioned consumer increased spending with PS5 hardware but the still the RoI is <7%. So like I said revenue is all time high but so is spending and RoI is very low.

I don't quite understand why the ecosystem matters in the context of this when I'm complaining about the fact that they got rid of several studios and fired a bunch of staff. Their profit is at an all time high at the same time that they decided to cut staff. Even if the PS4 has been a large contributer of this generation, the fact is that in 3.5 years they've earned as much as the previous 7 years. So they've earned more profit in half the time and STILL decided to make significant cuts. 

Sure, the argument can be made that they are thinking about the future and not wanting to take large hits, but it's doubtful that they are going to take such a hard hit when a huge portion of the profit is microtransactions and games continue to take longer to develop. What they need to do is keep a steady stream of games to get people to buy into their platform and spend their money on in-game purchases from things like Fortnite, Call of Duty, etc. 

They wouldn't make the profit off of the games themselves, they would put those as an investment into what really gives them the return. But that's not what they are doing, and I don't understand why. 

Heck, if the idea is to trim costs of games they could have kept the employees and made more games with smaller budgets. Increase their output and get more people to invest into the ecosystem. Yet, what we are currently getting is a situation where, for the second year in a row, Sony is releasing only one major first party game. Spiderman 2 was last year and this year it's Astrobot. 



EpicRandy said:

By strength, I was speaking of their ROI, those have dropped significantly over the last 2 years, and as PS4 support fades. Yes, they charge more per title and hardware but cost inflation has been brutal. That's why despite record revenue for 2022/2023 their profits are still significantly down.

--

If this refers to the doc in the OP they were referring to PS5 by years and mixing in PS4 2020+ profits, if not, please add a source and check if they didn't use the same trick of "PS5 gen". Also, they defined the most profitable in absolute terms instead of a ratio over their investment, but it's the latter that would give them strength to garner investment into PlayStation not the former. And define "major worry" Cause Sony is doing studio closure, and layoffs while also increasing PC support, I can understand those moves if they react to a situation they worry about, if not then that's a mess. 

--

But they already have made significant changes, driving the most recent investment towards GAAS, and announcing more support for PC. Not to mention investments in GAAS are not surefire things they are high-risk high-rewards and there will probably be more failure than success there.

I don't see the problem with mixing PS4 profits with the PS5 when COVID was the main reason it did so well. You also have to take into account that Bungie was on the books for the last couple of years. Most importantly, launch aligned, the PS5 is more profitable than the PS4, even if you want to take away FY13/FY14/FY20/FY21. People are spending and engaging more on PS5 compared to PS4. All this talk about declining margins and the PS5's most profitable years are still ahead of it lol. I also wouldn't overlook the tremendous growth of PlayStation's first party or even PlayStation Productions when discussing ROI. 

I define major worry as PS5 sales completely nosediving from this point forward. As I've outlined in another thread, Sony having a prolonged generation will practically ensure the PS5 surpasses the PS4's lifetime sales. Its also unlikely a global pandemic will disrupt the supply chain when the PS6 launches, and the PS5 will be able to enjoy a healthier end of life than the PS4, and with that even healthier profits. 

Their PC support has been telegraphed for years now. Their live service initiative has been telegraphed for years now. These initiatives aren't happening because Sony is worried about their margins for the last year lol. 



Yet it doesn't come close to the golden years of ps1 and ps2, in terms of exclusives



I'm hoping for a hardware price cut still - I hope Sony's higher ups and shareholders realize that there's a limit of how much money you can squeeze out of their userbase and that they also need to increase it eventually.