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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Layoffs in Gaming (Current State of the Gaming Industry)

Graphics are not going anywhere. PC via ultra settings are already a generational leap on the ps5. Meaning today's games are already programmed beyond the ps5 capabilities.

Industry needs to do a few things:
1) digital only
2) day 1 multiple platform release
3) less cut scenes and cinematic
4) cut the fluff (stop silly mini games, drop worthless collectibles, reduce side quests)

Free market is strong. Companies will make adjustments and everything will.be fine. Graphics will continue to be pushed.  Anyone who thinks I'm crazy, I will happily make a bet.  The ps6 will be launched and will be significantly more powerful than the ps5. 



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I can only speak for myself. But the AAA gaming industry completely lost me as a customer sometime in the last few years. I do own every platform besides Xbox (because you don't need an Xbox if you have a gaming PC). I tried countless so-called AAA games in the last few years and 90+ percent of those were just a big disappointment. Either it was a buggy mess or the games just weren't fun. This led me to ignore AAA releases. Today I'm mainly playing older titles and Indies. The games I love the most often come from small teams with even smaller budgets. It is so obvious that you don't need a truckload of money to make a good game. You just need ideas and creativity. Ubisoft, EA, Microsoft, Activision and the likes lack that. It seems to me that even Sonys Studios, which I absouletely adored during the PS3 era, have burnt out or something. I don't know, like a said, its totally subjective.

At least my friends feel the same way and I hardly know anyone who is excited for new game releases. Even my 11-year-old son is bored most of the time. The last game he was looking forward to was Cities Skylines 2, and that is already a few months old. When I look at the current release schedules, I almost get depressed. I don't know why the hell I have a PS5 standing here. The last game I bought at launch was Tomb Raider Remastered. Which is technically an old game. And boy is it a good one. Why don't they make games like that anymore? No bazillions of markers telling me exactly what to do. Just myself exploring levels and getting excited for what comes next.

Of course I bought the game for Switch, because why the hell would I buy something like that for the PS5? Nintendo is the exception from the rule in my case. Their games might not be the biggest or most ambitious and the graphics surely aren't up to date. But the games are fun! And that is something that is getting less and less common in the AAA gaming industry. Oh, Valve is also an exception now that I think of it. But they release maybe one game a decade, lol.

Now it might also be me getting old and getting another view at games or something. I won't rule that out. But overall I have a feeling that gaming companies listen too much to their market research and let too little room for creativity in development. When it comes to layoffs, I don't think it's neccessarily a bad thing. Make smaller teams, let them go wild. Release a bunch of smaller, but fun games. Screw highend graphics, those are a waste of money. Graphics are good enough nowadays. Maybe you're releasing 9 flops and 1 hit. I think that will be ok when the budget for those titles combined is less than it is for one so-called AAA-blockbuster these days.

But anyway, I'm no expert, so what the hell do I know.



Official member of VGC's Nintendo family, approved by the one and only RolStoppable. I feel honored.

Soundwave said:

Kotaku actually had a good article on the Sony leak from last year that revealed what Insomnaic/Sony are thinking, I'd reccomend reading it to anyone who really wants to understand what is happening:

https://kotaku.com/what-hacked-files-tell-us-about-the-studio-behind-spide-1851115233

Key points:

- Spider-Man 2 went over budget, was supposed to cost $270 million ended up being north of 300 million

- Internally Insomniac/Sony are extremely worried about rising costs, trying to figure out how to make blockbusters more like assembly line production (that sounds ... not great).

- Cinematic cut scenes cost a fortune.

- Here's a telling bit straight from the article quoting Insomniac themselves:

We have to make future AAA franchise games for $350 million or less,” reads one slide from a “sustainable budgets” presentation earlier this year. “In today’s dollars, that’s like making [Spider-Man 2] for $215 million. That’s $65 million less than our [Spider-Man 2] budget.” Another slide puts the problem more starkly: “...is 3x the investment in [Spider-Man 2] evident to anyone who plays the game?”

There it is, Insomniac themselves even wonders if spending 3x the budget is something even that noticeable to gamers. It looks to me like $300 million is the budget range where even Sony is saying "holy shit, we need to draw the line here".

- Another point, they basically are talking about how they're under extreme pressure from Sony to cut costs, will be cutting the costs on future Ratchet & Clank and New IP titles, but it's still not enough and they had to lay people off from the Wolverine and Spider-Man 3 teams:

A more recent presentation in November points to potentially more drastic cuts. “Slimming down Ratchet and cutting new IP will not account for the reductions Sony is looking for,” reads a PowerPoint note attributed to Insomniac head Ted Price. “To remove 50-75 people strategically, our best option is to cut deeply into Wolverine and Spider-Man 3, replacing lower performers with team members from Ratchet and new IP.​”

This is exactly what I've been talking about for a while. People who naively think budgets could just go from $150 mill to $300 mill to $450 mill ... no problems don't have any business sense at all. $300 million it seems like is an emergency budget point even for Sony.

Like I said before. Keep graphics to ps4 levels and up the framerate. I doubt Sony has that much sense though. PS6 is going to suuuuuuck. More games going to PC. More microtransactions. Likely digital only. 

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - on 03 March 2024

Cerebralbore101 said:
Soundwave said:

Kotaku actually had a good article on the Sony leak from last year that revealed what Insomnaic/Sony are thinking, I'd reccomend reading it to anyone who really wants to understand what is happening:

https://kotaku.com/what-hacked-files-tell-us-about-the-studio-behind-spide-1851115233

Key points:

- Spider-Man 2 went over budget, was supposed to cost $270 million ended up being north of 300 million

- Internally Insomniac/Sony are extremely worried about rising costs, trying to figure out how to make blockbusters more like assembly line production (that sounds ... not great).

- Cinematic cut scenes cost a fortune.

- Here's a telling bit straight from the article quoting Insomniac themselves:

We have to make future AAA franchise games for $350 million or less,” reads one slide from a “sustainable budgets” presentation earlier this year. “In today’s dollars, that’s like making [Spider-Man 2] for $215 million. That’s $65 million less than our [Spider-Man 2] budget.” Another slide puts the problem more starkly: “...is 3x the investment in [Spider-Man 2] evident to anyone who plays the game?”

There it is, Insomniac themselves even wonders if spending 3x the budget is something even that noticeable to gamers. It looks to me like $300 million is the budget range where even Sony is saying "holy shit, we need to draw the line here".

- Another point, they basically are talking about how they're under extreme pressure from Sony to cut costs, will be cutting the costs on future Ratchet & Clank and New IP titles, but it's still not enough and they had to lay people off from the Wolverine and Spider-Man 3 teams:

A more recent presentation in November points to potentially more drastic cuts. “Slimming down Ratchet and cutting new IP will not account for the reductions Sony is looking for,” reads a PowerPoint note attributed to Insomniac head Ted Price. “To remove 50-75 people strategically, our best option is to cut deeply into Wolverine and Spider-Man 3, replacing lower performers with team members from Ratchet and new IP.​”

This is exactly what I've been talking about for a while. People who naively think budgets could just go from $150 mill to $300 mill to $450 mill ... no problems don't have any business sense at all. $300 million it seems like is an emergency budget point even for Sony.

Like I said before. Keep graphics to ps4 levels and up the framerate. I doubt Sony has that much sense though. PS6 is going to suuuuuuck. More games going to PC. More microtransactions. Likely digital only. 

Digital only is the future, just a matter of time.  Ps4 graphics hold up very well.  And I agree, at this point fps is a great add.  I've been playing Zero Dawn, 120 fps at 4k is lovely.  Nothing wrong with the raw graphics.



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I think the solution is simple.

Let this generation last until 2034. Make it a two gen generation. Sony and Microsoft desperately need to slow down the graphics race so developers can catch up on how to make modern games more cheaply without crunch. Sony and MS overextended over many years by pushing the hardware more than the software teams could reasonably handle, and now games are too expensive to make and many have abysmal profit margins.

Another solution is slow down AAA development and ramp up AA development significantly. Nintendo is really good with this. Their games are far cheaper to make on average. Sony and MS should follow their path.



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Chrkeller said:

Graphics are not going anywhere. PC via ultra settings are already a generational leap on the ps5. Meaning today's games are already programmed beyond the ps5 capabilities.

Industry needs to do a few things:
1) digital only
2) day 1 multiple platform release
3) less cut scenes and cinematic
4) cut the fluff (stop silly mini games, drop worthless collectibles, reduce side quests)

Free market is strong. Companies will make adjustments and everything will.be fine. Graphics will continue to be pushed.  Anyone who thinks I'm crazy, I will happily make a bet.  The ps6 will be launched and will be significantly more powerful than the ps5. 

Whilst I agree with the pc part, to me it's not really a gen ahead. Most PC games simply look like the crossgen port of a PS5 game. Kind a the difference between God of War Ragnarok or Horizon Forbidden West on PS4 compared to PS4. Yes it looks better and visually more appealing, but to say it looks far better, the only game that was really the case for this gen is Cyberpunk.

Problem is running that game with everything on Ultra takes a lot more than what most people game on. Most people don't have a RTX4080 in their pc. Graphics on high budget titles will be pushed, but more and more titles will compromise on graphics.

Persona 3, Final Fantasy 7 rebirth, Helldivers 2, Infinite Wealth don't seem to pursue high quality graphics and most of those are still selling pretty well. Sure games like The Witcher and GTAVI can put a lot more money in graphical features, since they are expected to sell 20 million plus in the year they launch.

However for smaller IP's a budget of 100 million plus already is not feasible and you then end up with titles that look like they can run on PS4 in 30fps. Doesn't seem like 90% of the console crowd cares though and considering how Elden Ring looks and plays the oc crowd doesnt really care either.

Most Japanese publishers are already dropping out of the graphics race, even Square with FFVII Rebirth looking less impressive than FF16. Since they know the game will sell 8 million max and not all units are sold at full price. So why bother with a 200 million budget, knowing that each game nets you around 35 dollar revenue. After all 30% goes to Sony and Steam and a lot of those units aren't sold at full price.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Dulfite said:

I think the solution is simple.

Let this generation last until 2034. Make it a two gen generation. Sony and Microsoft desperately need to slow down the graphics race so developers can catch up on how to make modern games more cheaply without crunch. Sony and MS overextended over many years by pushing the hardware more than the software teams could reasonably handle, and now games are too expensive to make and many have abysmal profit margins.

Another solution is slow down AAA development and ramp up AA development significantly. Nintendo is really good with this. Their games are far cheaper to make on average. Sony and MS should follow their path.

Many publishers already dont bother with the graphics race anymore and are still successful. Capcom is the best example of this. Their games look good, but not out of this world good. They still are selling quite well. Same goes for Sega, although Atlus could invest a little more in graphics and Bandai Namco/From Soft also care little for the Graphics race. Mostly Western Devs are really pushing graphics and budgets to the point that only a few IP's will become viable by there own standards.

Look at Rift Apart that game has no reason to have a budget of 80 million, if the leaks are true. Uncharted 4 was made for 50 million. So even if we account inflation the budget is similar. Anyone who thinks Ratchet and Clank could come remotely close to Uncharted 4 in revenue and sales should evaluate that thought.

No matter how pretty Ratchet is, it was never coming close to Uncharted 4 revenue wise. Now I get Ratchet was also meant as a showcase of PS5 games and Spiderman makes enough profit for Ratchet to get to the breakeven point, but still.

A longer gen definitely seems like a good idea, since not a lot of games use the power of the PS4 to begin with. We are over 3 years in this gen and there are still plenty of cross platform games releasing. So I don't get the rush to a new even more expensive gen.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Qwark said:
Dulfite said:

I think the solution is simple.

Let this generation last until 2034. Make it a two gen generation. Sony and Microsoft desperately need to slow down the graphics race so developers can catch up on how to make modern games more cheaply without crunch. Sony and MS overextended over many years by pushing the hardware more than the software teams could reasonably handle, and now games are too expensive to make and many have abysmal profit margins.

Another solution is slow down AAA development and ramp up AA development significantly. Nintendo is really good with this. Their games are far cheaper to make on average. Sony and MS should follow their path.

Many publishers already dont bother with the graphics race anymore and are still successful. Capcom is the best example of this. Their games look good, but not out of this world good. They still are selling quite well. Same goes for Sega, although Atlus could invest a little more in graphics and Bandai Namco/From Soft also care little for the Graphics race. Mostly Western Devs are really pushing graphics and budgets to the point that only a few IP's will become viable by there own standards.

Look at Rift Apart that game has no reason to have a budget of 80 million, if the leaks are true. Uncharted 4 was made for 50 million. So even if we account inflation the budget is similar. Anyone who thinks Ratchet and Clank could come remotely close to Uncharted 4 in revenue and sales should evaluate that thought.

No matter how pretty Ratchet is, it was never coming close to Uncharted 4 revenue wise. Now I get Ratchet was also meant as a showcase of PS5 games and Spiderman makes enough profit for Ratchet to get to the breakeven point, but still.

A longer gen definitely seems like a good idea, since not a lot of games use the power of the PS4 to begin with. We are over 3 years in this gen and there are still plenty of cross platform games releasing. So I don't get the rush to a new even more expensive gen.

It's madness to me by going to the next gen in 2026 or 2027. If MS and Sony made games at Nintendo's hardware power level exclusively, we would be in this mess.

Nintendo figured this out a long time ago after the failure of the GameCube (which was graphically an insane console for its time). They only leap forward in power every 2 generations and that allows their devs to not have to rush to figure things out every gen.

GC to Wii was basically not a jump. Wii to Wii U was a huge jump. Wii U to Switch was hardly any different to most people (not digital foundry like people). Switch to Switch 2 will be the next big leap, then I expect their next console after that to be a small jump again and focus on some new innovation while their dev teams can breath a little. It's a sustainable business model, unlike what MS and Sony have been building towards the last two decades with pushing hardware to the max every 6 years, plus pro models 3 or so years after that. Their model isn't sustainable. 



Qwark said:
Dulfite said:

I think the solution is simple.

Let this generation last until 2034. Make it a two gen generation. Sony and Microsoft desperately need to slow down the graphics race so developers can catch up on how to make modern games more cheaply without crunch. Sony and MS overextended over many years by pushing the hardware more than the software teams could reasonably handle, and now games are too expensive to make and many have abysmal profit margins.

Another solution is slow down AAA development and ramp up AA development significantly. Nintendo is really good with this. Their games are far cheaper to make on average. Sony and MS should follow their path.

Many publishers already dont bother with the graphics race anymore and are still successful. Capcom is the best example of this. Their games look good, but not out of this world good. They still are selling quite well. Same goes for Sega, although Atlus could invest a little more in graphics and Bandai Namco/From Soft also care little for the Graphics race. Mostly Western Devs are really pushing graphics and budgets to the point that only a few IP's will become viable by there own standards.

Look at Rift Apart that game has no reason to have a budget of 80 million, if the leaks are true. Uncharted 4 was made for 50 million. So even if we account inflation the budget is similar. Anyone who thinks Ratchet and Clank could come remotely close to Uncharted 4 in revenue and sales should evaluate that thought.

No matter how pretty Ratchet is, it was never coming close to Uncharted 4 revenue wise. Now I get Ratchet was also meant as a showcase of PS5 games and Spiderman makes enough profit for Ratchet to get to the breakeven point, but still.

A longer gen definitely seems like a good idea, since not a lot of games use the power of the PS4 to begin with. We are over 3 years in this gen and there are still plenty of cross platform games releasing. So I don't get the rush to a new even more expensive gen.

Ratchet and Clank would sell several millions on the Switch if they ever did decide to dip their toes in Microsoft's way of bringing older titles to other consoles.



Dulfite said:

I think the solution is simple.

Let this generation last until 2034. Make it a two gen generation. Sony and Microsoft desperately need to slow down the graphics race so developers can catch up on how to make modern games more cheaply without crunch. Sony and MS overextended over many years by pushing the hardware more than the software teams could reasonably handle, and now games are too expensive to make and many have abysmal profit margins.

Another solution is slow down AAA development and ramp up AA development significantly. Nintendo is really good with this. Their games are far cheaper to make on average. Sony and MS should follow their path.

The former would be a bad idea since it would be a nightmare for many developers but the latter would be good. The recent massive success of Palworld shows that despite the state of the industry not being ideal there's still a huge market for fun experiences that while not cutting edge technology wise still look good.