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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

I see you are going to ignore being wrong with saying tuition average is 26k when it is 11k. 

You keep saying this like it changes everything. 

Chrkeller said:

I always found it interesting when someone is clearly wrong but ignores it and doesn't own it.

Most people do that. You've ignored a handful of things right in this very thread.

Chrkeller said:

If only a few people support it, the president (without congressional oversight) shouldn't be making billions disappear.  

I didn't say only a few people support it. Few people would volunteer for it.

Take a different issue like public housing. There are tons of studies that show that we can save money by diverting police costs that go towards policing homeless people toward giving them homes, and actually save money in the process. People certainly could volunteer for more housing things, but it makes a lot more sense to have a public policy to divert less worthwhile funds towards it. That requires government support, not individual choices. 

Chrkeller said:

Also, I can't keep up with who is requesting what information so I'll place it here.  People want to know why I think the problem is worthless degrees....  the largest portion of student debt is from the university of Phoenix, which is a for profit university being hammered in lawsuits for misleading advertising.  By definition those degrees are in fact worthless and are the largest part of debt owed.  UoP isn't even a real university.  

For profit universities should be illegal.  Shutting them down makes more sense than debt forgiveness.  Shut them down, sell the assets and give duped students their money back.  

Is there a source for the largest portion of student debt being from the university of Phoenix?

Of course I'm bringing it up.  He is off 2.5x....  that is massive.

https://theconversation.com/for-profit-education-is-the-leading-cause-of-americas-student-debt-crisis-115023

There are plenty of other articles.  For profit needs to go away.  Most are regionally accredited and aren't worth the paper they are printed on.  

Edit

Cornell also has a good article on the predatory nature of  for profit and their data has default at 70%......  70%....  any university with a 70% default needs to be shut down now.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 12 April 2024

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Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

I think Chrkeller has a serious case of “fuck you, got mineâ€Â. It doesn’t personally benefit him so he doesn’t support it.

The let’s apply the “I paid my loans so others should have to as wellâ€Â argument to other policies.


If we ever finally get to a point where Medicare for All passes in the US, will the argument among people over 65 be “I had to wait to get Medicare, all these young adults should have to wait too!â€Â?

Or bringing back the monthly child tax credit we had in 2021, will the argument among people whose children are grown be “I raised my kids without a monthly check from the government and parents today shouldn’t either!â€Â

Or various programs we all pay for regardless if we use them or not. Should people without kids be pissed that their property taxes are used to fund public schools even if they don’t have kids or fund public transit even if they have never used it?

I see you are going to ignore being wrong with saying tuition average is 26k when it is 11k.  I always found it interesting when someone is clearly wrong but ignores it and doesn't own it.

I'm actually in favor of many social programs, like universal Healthcare.  Your view of me is wrong.  

Didn’t mean to ignore it, the conversation moved a lot by the time I saw your quote. Yes, room and board can make up a huge chunk of costs but room and board is a necessity for many students so it shouldn’t be outright disregarded. Not everybody lives close enough to a university or has access to reliable transportation in order to commute or has the money to rent a place close to campus, some people have abusive parents or get kicked out of the house when they turn 18, etc.

The problem is that you are generalizing an issue with a lot of nuance. Sure, a lot of people with student debt is a result of poor decisions but multiple users have provided a ton of examples of why some people may have student debt but you insist on acting like they are all lazy, idiots with a useless degree.

It’s very reminiscent of the abortion debate when people will say shit like, “if you didn’t want a baby then you should have kept your legs closed!” and ignore all the other various reasons that people get abortions.

I know you support universal healthcare, that’s why I brought it up. I’m saying that your argument of “I paid my student debt so others should too!” is the equivalent of elderly people saying “I had to wait until I was 65 to get Medicare so others should too!” in opposition to universal healthcare. It’s a fuck you, got mine mentality, I struggled to get where I am and you should too.

I also think it makes you a hypocrite. You don’t want to pay for other people’s education because they made poor decisions and believe in personal responsibility but you are fine with paying for people’s healthcare, many of which made poor decisions. Why are you ok with paying for the healthcare of a person who smoked for 40 years and now has lung cancer or the morbidly obese person who has diabetes or the alcoholic who got in a car wreck or the drug addict who overdosed or the idiot who injured themselves doing something reckless or that Covid denying, antivaxxer who is on a breathing machine. Why should our hard earned tax dollars go towards these people who need healthcare as a direct result of poor life decisions, shouldn’t we only have to take care of the people who live a healthy lifestyle?

To summarize, I think you’re a hypocrite and have a case of fuck you, got mine.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

I see you are going to ignore being wrong with saying tuition average is 26k when it is 11k.  I always found it interesting when someone is clearly wrong but ignores it and doesn't own it.

I'm actually in favor of many social programs, like universal Healthcare.  Your view of me is wrong.  

Didn’t mean to ignore it, the conversation moved a lot by the time I saw your quote. Yes, room and board can make up a huge chunk of costs but room and board is a necessity for many students so it shouldn’t be outright disregarded. Not everybody lives close enough to a university or has access to reliable transportation in order to commute or has the money to rent a place close to campus, some people have abusive parents or get kicked out of the house when they turn 18, etc.

The problem is that you are generalizing an issue with a lot of nuance. Sure, a lot of people with student debt is a result of poor decisions but multiple users have provided a ton of examples of why some people may have student debt but you insist on acting like they are all lazy, idiots with a useless degree.

It’s very reminiscent of the abortion debate when people will say shit like, “if you didn’t want a baby then you should have kept your legs closed!” and ignore all the other various reasons that people get abortions.

I know you support universal healthcare, that’s why I brought it up. I’m saying that your argument of “I paid my student debt so others should too!” is the equivalent of elderly people saying “I had to wait until I was 65 to get Medicare so others should too!” in opposition to universal healthcare. It’s a fuck you, got mine mentality, I struggled to get where I am and you should too.

I also think it makes you a hypocrite. You don’t want to pay for other people’s education because they made poor decisions and believe in personal responsibility but you are fine with paying for people’s healthcare, many of which made poor decisions. Why are you ok with paying for the healthcare of a person who smoked for 40 years and now has lung cancer or the morbidly obese person who has diabetes or the alcoholic who got in a car wreck or the drug addict who overdosed or the idiot who injured themselves doing something reckless or that Covid denying, antivaxxer who is on a breathing machine. Why should our hard earned tax dollars go towards these people who need healthcare as a direct result of poor life decisions, shouldn’t we only have to take care of the people who live a healthy lifestyle?

To summarize, I think you’re a hypocrite and have a case of fuck you, got mine.

I'm 100% pro choice.  Their body, their choice.  To me healthcare and college are apples and oranges.  Everyone needs healthcare, not everyone needs college.  I just think trades are grossly underrated.  I think, just my opinion, we should move away from guilting people into going to college.  

And yeah, 6 years of college and 19 years of work...  yeah, I have that attitude.  I'll accept that.

I still think the larger issue is predatory profit schools that are a giant scam.  



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Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

Didn’t mean to ignore it, the conversation moved a lot by the time I saw your quote. Yes, room and board can make up a huge chunk of costs but room and board is a necessity for many students so it shouldn’t be outright disregarded. Not everybody lives close enough to a university or has access to reliable transportation in order to commute or has the money to rent a place close to campus, some people have abusive parents or get kicked out of the house when they turn 18, etc.

The problem is that you are generalizing an issue with a lot of nuance. Sure, a lot of people with student debt is a result of poor decisions but multiple users have provided a ton of examples of why some people may have student debt but you insist on acting like they are all lazy, idiots with a useless degree.

It’s very reminiscent of the abortion debate when people will say shit like, “if you didn’t want a baby then you should have kept your legs closed!” and ignore all the other various reasons that people get abortions.

I know you support universal healthcare, that’s why I brought it up. I’m saying that your argument of “I paid my student debt so others should too!” is the equivalent of elderly people saying “I had to wait until I was 65 to get Medicare so others should too!” in opposition to universal healthcare. It’s a fuck you, got mine mentality, I struggled to get where I am and you should too.

I also think it makes you a hypocrite. You don’t want to pay for other people’s education because they made poor decisions and believe in personal responsibility but you are fine with paying for people’s healthcare, many of which made poor decisions. Why are you ok with paying for the healthcare of a person who smoked for 40 years and now has lung cancer or the morbidly obese person who has diabetes or the alcoholic who got in a car wreck or the drug addict who overdosed or the idiot who injured themselves doing something reckless or that Covid denying, antivaxxer who is on a breathing machine. Why should our hard earned tax dollars go towards these people who need healthcare as a direct result of poor life decisions, shouldn’t we only have to take care of the people who live a healthy lifestyle?

To summarize, I think you’re a hypocrite and have a case of fuck you, got mine.

I'm 100% pro choice.  Their body, their choice.  To me healthcare and college are apples and oranges.  Everyone needs healthcare, not everyone needs college.  I just think trades are grossly underrated.  I think, just my opinion, we should move away from guilting people into going to college.  

And yeah, 6 years of college and 19 years of work...  yeah, I have that attitude.  I'll accept that.

I still think the larger issue is predatory profit schools that are a giant scam.  

I’m not saying you aren’t pro-choice, I’m saying that your argument against higher education is very reminiscent to other people’s arguments towards abortion or healthcare.

Sure, higher education and healthcare aren’t the same but I think it’s a valid comparison when your argument is about poor choices, a lot of people have health issues as a direct result of poor choices so why are you ok with subsidizing them?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

I'm 100% pro choice.  Their body, their choice.  To me healthcare and college are apples and oranges.  Everyone needs healthcare, not everyone needs college.  I just think trades are grossly underrated.  I think, just my opinion, we should move away from guilting people into going to college.  

And yeah, 6 years of college and 19 years of work...  yeah, I have that attitude.  I'll accept that.

I still think the larger issue is predatory profit schools that are a giant scam.  

I’m not saying you aren’t pro-choice, I’m saying that your argument against higher education is very reminiscent to other people’s arguments towards abortion or healthcare.

Sure, higher education and healthcare aren’t the same but I think it’s a valid comparison when your argument is about poor choices, a lot of people have health issues as a direct result of poor choices so why are you ok with subsidizing them?

Because not having healthcare can mean death.  If someone doesn't go to Uni they aren't going to die.  



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zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

I'm 100% pro choice.  Their body, their choice.  To me healthcare and college are apples and oranges.  Everyone needs healthcare, not everyone needs college.  I just think trades are grossly underrated.  I think, just my opinion, we should move away from guilting people into going to college.  

And yeah, 6 years of college and 19 years of work...  yeah, I have that attitude.  I'll accept that.

I still think the larger issue is predatory profit schools that are a giant scam.  

I’m not saying you aren’t pro-choice, I’m saying that your argument against higher education is very reminiscent to other people’s arguments towards abortion or healthcare.

Sure, higher education and healthcare aren’t the same but I think it’s a valid comparison when your argument is about poor choices, a lot of people have health issues as a direct result of poor choices so why are you ok with subsidizing them?

I'm curious since we are drawing parallels, what are your thoughts on Legal vs Illegal immigration?  This question is for either of you and does tie into administrative policy differences between the two candidates.



The_Yoda said:
zorg1000 said:

I’m not saying you aren’t pro-choice, I’m saying that your argument against higher education is very reminiscent to other people’s arguments towards abortion or healthcare.

Sure, higher education and healthcare aren’t the same but I think it’s a valid comparison when your argument is about poor choices, a lot of people have health issues as a direct result of poor choices so why are you ok with subsidizing them?

I'm curious since we are drawing parallels, what are your thoughts on Legal vs Illegal immigration?  This question is for either of you and does tie into administrative policy differences between the two candidates.

Trump for me is just a no.  After Jan 6th he has to be a no, regardless of his policies.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of supporting illegal immigration.  It isn't fair to those who went through the system nor do we have the policies and infrastructure to support people who are coming over.  Perhaps if we raised taxes and built integration systems better my opinion would change.  



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The_Yoda said:
zorg1000 said:

I’m not saying you aren’t pro-choice, I’m saying that your argument against higher education is very reminiscent to other people’s arguments towards abortion or healthcare.

Sure, higher education and healthcare aren’t the same but I think it’s a valid comparison when your argument is about poor choices, a lot of people have health issues as a direct result of poor choices so why are you ok with subsidizing them?

I'm curious since we are drawing parallels, what are your thoughts on Legal vs Illegal immigration?  This question is for either of you and does tie into administrative policy differences between the two candidates.

Not exactly sure what kind of parallels you’re asking for but I guess my general view on immigration is that we should be accepting of increased immigration levels and having an expedited asylum & work authorization process while also increasing border security and cracking down on things like drug trafficking, human trafficking and other illegal activity.

I’m sure it has flaws and I know it has critics from both the left and right but the Senate border deal that got killed seemed like a pretty fair compromise and step in the right direction when it comes to immigration & border security.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

A203D said:
Renamed said:

"We have therefore made the assessment that COVID-19 can be characterized as a pandemic. (WHO, 2020).

World Health Organization. (2020, March 11). WHO Director-General’s Opening Remarks at the Media Briefing on COVID-19 - 11 March 2020. World Health Organization. https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---11-march-2020

That was actualy what I was hoping you would do. The WHO is a a private corporation. They are funded primarily by the United States and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. They actually changed the definition of a pandemic in 2009:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/health/09docs.html

I read your article from 2009, did you?

“To me,” he continued, “a pandemic is basically a new or novel agent emerging with worldwide transmission.”

So thanks for linking to an article confirming it was a pandemic.


Further, we have to take this back to the beginning.  The burden of proof is incumbent upon the one making the new claim.

COVID-19 is established and accepted as a pandemic by the scientific, legal, medical and political community the world over.  You have made your claim.  Now prove it.



zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

I see you are going to ignore being wrong with saying tuition average is 26k when it is 11k.  I always found it interesting when someone is clearly wrong but ignores it and doesn't own it.

I'm actually in favor of many social programs, like universal Healthcare.  Your view of me is wrong.  

Didn’t mean to ignore it, the conversation moved a lot by the time I saw your quote. Yes, room and board can make up a huge chunk of costs but room and board is a necessity for many students so it shouldn’t be outright disregarded. Not everybody lives close enough to a university or has access to reliable transportation in order to commute or has the money to rent a place close to campus, some people have abusive parents or get kicked out of the house when they turn 18, etc.

The problem is that you are generalizing an issue with a lot of nuance. Sure, a lot of people with student debt is a result of poor decisions but multiple users have provided a ton of examples of why some people may have student debt but you insist on acting like they are all lazy, idiots with a useless degree.

It’s very reminiscent of the abortion debate when people will say shit like, “if you didn’t want a baby then you should have kept your legs closed!” and ignore all the other various reasons that people get abortions.

I know you support universal healthcare, that’s why I brought it up. I’m saying that your argument of “I paid my student debt so others should too!” is the equivalent of elderly people saying “I had to wait until I was 65 to get Medicare so others should too!” in opposition to universal healthcare. It’s a fuck you, got mine mentality, I struggled to get where I am and you should too.

I also think it makes you a hypocrite. You don’t want to pay for other people’s education because they made poor decisions and believe in personal responsibility but you are fine with paying for people’s healthcare, many of which made poor decisions. Why are you ok with paying for the healthcare of a person who smoked for 40 years and now has lung cancer or the morbidly obese person who has diabetes or the alcoholic who got in a car wreck or the drug addict who overdosed or the idiot who injured themselves doing something reckless or that Covid denying, antivaxxer who is on a breathing machine. Why should our hard earned tax dollars go towards these people who need healthcare as a direct result of poor life decisions, shouldn’t we only have to take care of the people who live a healthy lifestyle?

To summarize, I think you’re a hypocrite and have a case of fuck you, got mine.

I feel you're being tad harsh here. I think there are a number of issued with this policy, if I'm understanding it correctly. Firstly it's treating a symptom rather than addressing the underlying cause. Is this gonna have to happen every decade to bail out the next generation? Why will their situation be any different than the current crop of debt-saddled graduates?

There's also a fairness component to this. It's not like your example above where an entitlement is given to people who's date of birth falls after a specific date. This forgiveness will treat people of the same age, studying the same courses at the same colleges, from the same backgrounds, differently based on whether they've been proactive in paying off their debt or not. Those who've endeavored to repay their debt will get nothing, whereas their contemporaries who've made it less of a priority will be let off the hook. In some instances this will be because some have made more money than others, but let's be honest, it's also because some people are more fiscally responsible than others.

It also potentially sets up a weird incentive structure going forward. Are future graduates gonna rush to repay their debts when they know there's a chance that it'll be done for them if they just wait it out...?

I live in Scotland and our fees get paid by the government. The loan that we take out for rent & living costs are repayable only when your income hits a certain threshold (27K per annum atm).  I think it's the case that whatever doesn't get repaid after 30 years is forgiven. This seems like a much better setup as obviously nobody is going to keep their salary under 27K just so they can dodge their loan in 3 decades time. But it also assists those who haven't been able to generate a decent income for whatever reason.

Bottom line, I think the US needs to address the route causes here rather than this measure, which yes, will help some vulnerable people, but will also reward others who've not been motivated or responsible enough to repay their debt when they could have, so I can see where chrkeller is coming from with some of his points tbh.