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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Phil Spencer: "Nintendo future exists off their own hardware"

Leynos said:
KLXVER said:

Well we are not getting more Resistance or InFamous games, so thats less.

Where Killzone died. A Horizon dawned. What was once a Resistance now has great power and responsibility. What was once Infamous is now a Ghost of Tsushima.

PotentHerbs said:
KLXVER said:

Well we are not getting more Resistance or InFamous games, so thats less.

Right, because we're getting AAA titles like Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon and Wolverine instead. 

KLXVER said:
PotentHerbs said:

Right, because we're getting AAA titles like Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon and Wolverine instead. 

Well I would rather have a new Resistance, but fair enough.

-Dips finger into top hole(s) of XBSX

-Pulls finger out and tastes finger

-Needs more Halo

A new Resistance or InFamous would be nice eventually, but I think we can all agree it's better than only Resistance and InFamous over and over.



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EricHiggin said:
Leynos said:

Where Killzone died. A Horizon dawned. What was once a Resistance now has great power and responsibility. What was once Infamous is now a Ghost of Tsushima.

PotentHerbs said:

Right, because we're getting AAA titles like Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon and Wolverine instead. 

KLXVER said:

Well I would rather have a new Resistance, but fair enough.

-Dips finger into top hole(s) of XBSX

-Pulls finger out and tastes finger

-Needs more Halo

A new Resistance or InFamous would be nice eventually, but I think we can all agree it's better than only Resistance and InFamous over and over.

All 3 are mid



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

I gave up xbox after the One. I have no intention of getting a series x. The Xbox one dashboard was a running billboard of advertisements and I've never had a console run so many updates. Halo MCC updated the entire game weekly. Plus MS puts their games, vast majority, on Steam anyway.

Plus I think their console exclusives have gone down hill.  Halo and Gears are solid, not amazing.  And Rare is just dead to me.  After seeing what happened to Rare I hope MS never gets ahold of Nintendo.



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

zero129 said:
mjk45 said:

I'm not saying he should step aside but like Miyamoto there comes a time where you need to delegate mentor and groom successors,btw Zelda seems to be doing well and in Bethesda's case the over reliance on a few key people sees some of their prime IPs languishing and MS and Bethesda need to address that problem because at the end of the day it isn't good from a production pipeline or roi sense to have some of your biggest games sitting in a queue.   

So what do you think the backlash would be if MS made Todd step away?. To you you might think the quality is going down but for me Starfield is the best game Beth has made in years so its all subjective. Also we dont know if Todd isnt teaching someone to step in for him.

Edit i do agree with you that they should allow some others to work on some of the ips too. But like i said we also dont know if that will be the case its still early days.

Like I said it's not about making Todd or anyone else step away that wouldn't be in anyone's best interest, it's about looking at Bethesda and seeing what MS can do to improve the company and looking in from outside production is an issue, in this case it not one of struggling to make IPs that sell but of meeting demand for those IP in a reasonable timeframe and this is the opportune time to do something about that situation on two sides, on the creative side you use the time to set up a pathways that help to mentor delegate and groom the future,Todd's of the world, then there's the financial side that sees you invest in capability that allows for lets say a hypothetical pipeline that would see one entry each of the Elder scrolls Fallout and Starfield games across the gen or something similar to be achievable.

Last edited by mjk45 - on 20 September 2023

Research shows Video games  help make you smarter, so why am I an idiot

Shatts said:
Shatts said:

That's why I was baffled during that case if you want to scroll all the way back to those threads. Even without these documents there was so many things that could be said, but man FTC was so clueless. So many people disagreed with me and downvoted, I'm just doubling down on what I said then. 

I had time to search the past reactions 

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/457645/playstation-ceo-jim-ryan-starfield-xbox-exclusivity-is-not-anti-competitive/

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/457790/microsoft-wins-ftc-fight-in-the-us-to-acquire-activision-blizzard/

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/247508/why-do-people-view-the-ms-acquisition-of-abk-as-a-good-thing/1/

The thing is monopoly was never an issue in this acquisition. MS will still only be 3rd place amongst publishers by revenue even after the transaction, making any claim about monopoly ludicrous from the start. Monopoly isn't defined by an emotional response to a change in the market or by gamers' partisan-fueled utopic should-be rules, it's defined by tangible effect and context on a market.

That is why you saw the FTC making a joke of market definitions trying to paint MS as having substantially more share than the reality. A console market that excludes Nintendo (by the way if ever there's really a way for MS to merge with Nintendo, you can thank FTC for defining them as in a different market making any merger attempts an easy vertical merger one instead of a way stricter horizontal one), a badly defined cloud market.

It's not that the FTC were clowns making a weak case using bad arguments when good was available, the FTC were clowns fighting a weak case that had no possible good arguments to begin with. And they knew it was the case that's why their initial strategy was to delay until MS/ABK could not sustain their agreement rather than fight in court. 

And it's not like the FTC was the only one to talk here either, dozens of market authorities have allowed the transaction all over the world, and a lawsuit initiated by gamers and financed by Sony did not yield any result either. Even Sony's own internal communication shows this transaction was not anti-competitive or monopolistic.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 20 September 2023

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EpicRandy said:
Shatts said:

I had time to search the past reactions 

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/457645/playstation-ceo-jim-ryan-starfield-xbox-exclusivity-is-not-anti-competitive/

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/457790/microsoft-wins-ftc-fight-in-the-us-to-acquire-activision-blizzard/

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/247508/why-do-people-view-the-ms-acquisition-of-abk-as-a-good-thing/1/

The thing is monopoly was never an issue in this acquisition. MS will still only be 3rd place amongst publishers by revenue even after the transaction, making any claim about monopoly ludicrous from the start. Monopoly isn't defined by an emotional response to a change in the market or by gamers' partisan-fueled utopic should-be rules, it's defined by tangible effect and context on a market.

That is why you saw the FTC making a joke of market definitions trying to paint MS as having substantially more share than the reality. A console market that excludes Nintendo (by the way if ever there's really a way for MS to merge with Nintendo, you can thank FTC for defining them as in a different market making any merger attempts an easy vertical merger one instead of a way stricter horizontal one), a badly defined cloud market.

It's not that the FTC were clowns making a weak case using bad arguments when good was available, the FTC were clowns fighting a weak case that had no possible good arguments to begin with. And they knew it was the case that's why their initial strategy was to delay until MS/ABK could not sustain their agreement rather than fight in court. 

And it's not like the FTC was the only one to talk here either, dozens of market authorities have allowed the transaction all over the world, and a lawsuit initiated by gamers and financed by Sony did not yield any result either. Even Sony's own internal communication shows this transaction was not anti-competitive or monopolistic.

I don't remember the full details tbh, but I'm pretty sure the FTC was arguing against established IPs going exclusive to Microsoft like Call of Duty. CMA was arguing about the cloud service being a monopoly, and I'll add that Windows is over 95% of operating system on gaming PCs. Isn't that monopoly?

-As a practical matter, a market share of greater than fifty percent has been necessary for courts to find the existence of monopoly power

If big companies like Microsoft can acquire huge third parties like Activision Blizzard and make them exclusive, then how are smaller companies supposed to compete directly? This doesn't create competition.

- Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market. Antitrust laws ensure businesses do not engage in competitive practices that harm other, usually smaller, businesses or consumers.

Obviously market authorities from other countries don't care cuz Activision Blizzard and consoles are only big in certain countries. They don't see the impact.



Shatts said:
EpicRandy said:

The thing is monopoly was never an issue in this acquisition. MS will still only be 3rd place amongst publishers by revenue even after the transaction, making any claim about monopoly ludicrous from the start. Monopoly isn't defined by an emotional response to a change in the market or by gamers' partisan-fueled utopic should-be rules, it's defined by tangible effect and context on a market.

That is why you saw the FTC making a joke of market definitions trying to paint MS as having substantially more share than the reality. A console market that excludes Nintendo (by the way if ever there's really a way for MS to merge with Nintendo, you can thank FTC for defining them as in a different market making any merger attempts an easy vertical merger one instead of a way stricter horizontal one), a badly defined cloud market.

It's not that the FTC were clowns making a weak case using bad arguments when good was available, the FTC were clowns fighting a weak case that had no possible good arguments to begin with. And they knew it was the case that's why their initial strategy was to delay until MS/ABK could not sustain their agreement rather than fight in court. 

And it's not like the FTC was the only one to talk here either, dozens of market authorities have allowed the transaction all over the world, and a lawsuit initiated by gamers and financed by Sony did not yield any result either. Even Sony's own internal communication shows this transaction was not anti-competitive or monopolistic.

I don't remember the full details tbh, but I'm pretty sure the FTC was arguing against established IPs going exclusive to Microsoft like Call of Duty. CMA was arguing about the cloud service being a monopoly, and I'll add that Windows is over 95% of operating system on gaming PCs. Isn't that monopoly?

-As a practical matter, a market share of greater than fifty percent has been necessary for courts to find the existence of monopoly power

If big companies like Microsoft can acquire huge third parties like Activision Blizzard and make them exclusive, then how are smaller companies supposed to compete directly? This doesn't create competition.

- Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market. Antitrust laws ensure businesses do not engage in competitive practices that harm other, usually smaller, businesses or consumers.

Obviously market authorities from other countries don't care cuz Activision Blizzard and consoles are only big in certain countries. They don't see the impact.

FTC - 

  • Yes, and CoD going exclusive has been judged a non-issue by literally every other authority and the judgment in the FTC court case. that's the weak argument that relied upon, amongst other things, a market definition excluding Nintendo.

CMA -

  • The use of "cloud market" was always bogus. The market was never big enough so MS would want to save it over a $70B transaction and so would pretty much be ready for any concession there from the start. The concession that the EU got because they engaged in good faith with MS to resolve any issue.
  •  There is no difference in content in the cloud market than other markets making MS early lead only because they made an early and serious push for it and only sustained by other actors' unwillingness to add cloud options and not because of any bindings holds or monopolistic practice from MS.
  • Also, the market was badly defined by the CMA which led to a paradox in their conclusion of the impact of the transaction. Here are some thoughts I already made from the link I shared earlier :

The CMA found no issue with digital stores, likewise, they found no issue with multi-game subscription providers. But by their definition, they have an issue if an actor does or adds a cloud streaming feature. There's a paradox here. The CMA has taken issue because the remedies MS proposed only catered to BYOG business as they would have wanted to also support cloud providers with multi-game subscription models and others but again they found no issue with said business models if they don't propose a cloud feature.

This paradox makes it impossible for MS to propose actual remedies without having them address other markets outside the scope of the actual cloud market. In other words, by wanting MS to propose remedies to cloud providers with multi-game subscription services they are not actually benefiting the cloud aspect of those providers but the multi-game subscription one.

Let's say as a thought experiment, that the CMA did succeed and made MS commit to remedies for every business model of cloud providers there can be. What would prevent Epic Store, an actor judged not at risk by the CMA, to add a cloud streaming feature and claim the benefits of MS remedies? Likewise, if the CMA succeeded in forcing MS to license ABK titles to an actual cloud provider with a multi-game subscription service like Luna, what prevent Amazon from dropping Cloud streaming feature afterward or adding a download and install feature?

Windows - 

  • is not about Xbox
  • overall usage was 90% 10 years ago and it's now 70% and declining (quite the opposite of what you would see in case of an entity exerting policy to create/sustain a monopoly)
  • Gaming market shares making a monopoly out of Windows OS are again artificially limiting themselves to PC gaming overlooking mobile and console gaming which all feature different OS.
  • even if we limit ourselves to PC gaming, the high share is only fueled by users and content creators' general overlook of alternatives, not any policy set by Microsoft to keep the status quo or other. Take the popular multiple Genshin impact, for instance, it's popular enough to be on pretty much everything, and they also have the resources to do so. Yet where is the macOS version, where is the Linux version? Can you point to any MS policy preventing its developers from supporting those? Dota2 and Csgo, the ever top 2 top-played Steam games both support OSX and Linux, and yet users still play them predominantly on Windows. Can you point to any MS policy preventing gamers from playing those on anything other than Windows?

-As a practical matter, a market share of greater than fifty percent has been necessary for courts to find the existence of monopoly power

*Can be* that's all depends on how a company is acting, Nvidia has a greater share of the GPU market than MS on the OS market and it's not a monopoly.

-If big companies like Microsoft can acquire huge third parties like Activision Blizzard and make them exclusive, then how are smaller companies supposed to compete directly? This doesn't create competition.

By continuing to do what they are, it's not without reason EA and many others went public stating how this transaction changed nothing for them. Having CoD under MS does nothing to lessen Ubisoft's Assassin Creeds fanbase or appeals nor it does for any other franchises. This is content creation with each product being unique not some factory producing a commodity X so cheap others cannot match their output and pricing.

- Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market. Antitrust laws ensure businesses do not engage in competitive practices that harm other, usually smaller, businesses or consumers.

Yes, and this transaction has been judged not to create any of this by dozens of market authorities and has been ruled not at risk to do so when court challenged.

-Obviously market authorities from other countries don't care cuz Activision Blizzard and consoles are only big in certain countries. They don't see the impact.

Convenient when market authorities don't challenge, it's because they don't care, when they do and fail, it's because they're incompetent. Sony also did not saw the impacts or did not care when Jim Ryan wrote the infamous email apparently.

Of course, the vast majority of market authorities are the ones being blinded and very few that just so happen to have shown great desire to challenge big-tech whenever they can are supposed to be the ones seeing straight through things here, even though they make a joke of their case when they try to challenge it.

I guess any argument will fit if it means it can be an alternative to the more logical conclusion that this transaction simply does not rise to anything anti-competitive or monopolistic.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 20 September 2023

It's almost as if Phil Spencer/Microsoft feel they should be entitled to buy Nintendo and Nintendo should just come their senses. Fuck off



EpicRandy said:
Shatts said:

I don't remember the full details tbh, but I'm pretty sure the FTC was arguing against established IPs going exclusive to Microsoft like Call of Duty. CMA was arguing about the cloud service being a monopoly, and I'll add that Windows is over 95% of operating system on gaming PCs. Isn't that monopoly?

-As a practical matter, a market share of greater than fifty percent has been necessary for courts to find the existence of monopoly power

If big companies like Microsoft can acquire huge third parties like Activision Blizzard and make them exclusive, then how are smaller companies supposed to compete directly? This doesn't create competition.

- Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market. Antitrust laws ensure businesses do not engage in competitive practices that harm other, usually smaller, businesses or consumers.

Obviously market authorities from other countries don't care cuz Activision Blizzard and consoles are only big in certain countries. They don't see the impact.

FTC - 

  • Yes, and CoD going exclusive has been judged a non-issue by literally every other authority and the judgment in the FTC court case. that's the weak argument that relied upon, amongst other things, a market definition excluding Nintendo.

CMA -

  • The use of "cloud market" was always bogus. The market was never big enough so MS would want to save it over a $70B transaction and so would pretty much be ready for any concession there from the start. The concession that the EU got because they engaged in good faith with MS to resolve any issue.
  •  There is no difference in content in the cloud market than other markets making MS early lead only because they made an early and serious push for it and only sustained by other actors' unwillingness to add cloud options and not because of any bindings holds or monopolistic practice from MS.
  • Also, the market was badly defined by the CMA which led to a paradox in their conclusion of the impact of the transaction. Here are some thoughts I already made from the link I shared earlier :

The CMA found no issue with digital stores, likewise, they found no issue with multi-game subscription providers. But by their definition, they have an issue if an actor does or adds a cloud streaming feature. There's a paradox here. The CMA has taken issue because the remedies MS proposed only catered to BYOG business as they would have wanted to also support cloud providers with multi-game subscription models and others but again they found no issue with said business models if they don't propose a cloud feature.

This paradox makes it impossible for MS to propose actual remedies without having them address other markets outside the scope of the actual cloud market. In other words, by wanting MS to propose remedies to cloud providers with multi-game subscription services they are not actually benefiting the cloud aspect of those providers but the multi-game subscription one.

Let's say as a thought experiment, that the CMA did succeed and made MS commit to remedies for every business model of cloud providers there can be. What would prevent Epic Store, an actor judged not at risk by the CMA, to add a cloud streaming feature and claim the benefits of MS remedies? Likewise, if the CMA succeeded in forcing MS to license ABK titles to an actual cloud provider with a multi-game subscription service like Luna, what prevent Amazon from dropping Cloud streaming feature afterward or adding a download and install feature?

Windows - 

  • is not about Xbox
  • overall usage was 90% 10 years ago and it's now 70% and declining (quite the opposite of what you would see in case of an entity exerting policy to create/sustain a monopoly)
  • Gaming market shares making a monopoly out of Windows OS are again artificially limiting themselves to PC gaming overlooking mobile and console gaming which all feature different OS.
  • even if we limit ourselves to PC gaming, the high share is only fueled by users and content creators' general overlook of alternatives, not any policy set by Microsoft to keep the status quo or other. Take the popular multiple Genshin impact, for instance, it's popular enough to be on pretty much everything, and they also have the resources to do so. Yet where is the macOS version, where is the Linux version? Can you point to any MS policy preventing its developers from supporting those? Dota2 and Csgo, the ever top 2 top-played Steam games both support OSX and Linux, and yet users still play them predominantly on Windows. Can you point to any MS policy preventing gamers from playing those on anything other than Windows?

-As a practical matter, a market share of greater than fifty percent has been necessary for courts to find the existence of monopoly power

*Can be* that's all depends on how a company is acting, Nvidia has a greater share of the GPU market than MS on the OS market and it's not a monopoly.

-If big companies like Microsoft can acquire huge third parties like Activision Blizzard and make them exclusive, then how are smaller companies supposed to compete directly? This doesn't create competition.

By continuing to do what they are, it's not without reason EA and many others went public stating how this transaction changed nothing for them. Having CoD under MS does nothing to lessen Ubisoft's Assassin Creeds fanbase or appeals nor it does for any other franchises. This is content creation with each product being unique not some factory producing a commodity X so cheap others cannot match their output and pricing.

- Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market. Antitrust laws ensure businesses do not engage in competitive practices that harm other, usually smaller, businesses or consumers.

Yes, and this transaction has been judged not to create any of this by dozens of market authorities and has been ruled not at risk to do so when court challenged.

-Obviously market authorities from other countries don't care cuz Activision Blizzard and consoles are only big in certain countries. They don't see the impact.

Convenient when market authorities don't challenge, it's because they don't care, when they do and fail, it's because they're incompetent. Sony also did not saw the impacts or did not care when Jim Ryan wrote the infamous email apparently.

Of course, the vast majority of market authorities are the ones being blinded and very few that just so happen to have shown great desire to challenge big-tech whenever they can are supposed to be the ones seeing straight through things here, even though they make a joke of their case when they try to challenge it.

I guess any argument will fit if it means it can be an alternative to the more logical conclusion that this transaction simply does not rise to anything anti-competitive or monopolistic.

Well my point was that Microsoft isn't just about Xbox consoles. They have multiple segments such as their PC operating system and cloud service that benefits from gaming content. No other company has a big share in 3 platforms in the gaming space. Steam is only big on PC, Nintendo Handheld, Sony consoles, even Apple and Google doesn't have anything close to what Microsoft has. People talk about how Microsoft's gaming revenue is lower than its competitor, but that doesn't mean it's significantly lower. Sometimes it's even above Nintendo's. Most importantly, it doesn't include the revenue that benefits from PC users using Windows. 

I was baffled with how incompetent FTC was, not only they failed to mention the fact that Microsoft has other platforms and services that benefits with this acquisition, they limited the discussion to "high-end consoles" for whatever reason. Both CMA and FTC are way too obsessed with CoD, when Activision Blizzard is more than just CoD. It makes sense why, because Call of Duty is constantly one of the biggest games on Playstation. Since they limited the discussion to "high-end consoles" CoD is the main topic. I understand, Sony is the big competitor, they would suffer a lot from this acquisition. However, if you think just a tiny bit, Activision Blizzard is a third party that has huge presence in every platform for gaming. King for mobile, Blizzard for PC, Activision for consoles/pc/mobile. Combined with Microsoft's market presence, you don't need to be Einstein to understand the potential threat to the market share. Microsoft already has lots of capable studios and assets including Bethesda and fcking Minecraft man. 

This discussion shouldn't be about consoles, it should've been the whole video game market. Phil Spencer said multiple times their focus is on mobile too. There's a new law that will allow mobile users to use third party stores. Perhaps Microsoft would aim there as well. With this leak, it was revealed they are(were) also interested in Valve and Nintendo. They clearly don't give af about competition, they just want to be market leaders through the power of money. This is seen with the Xbox plan to be market leaders by 2030. Remember, Microsoft is a gigantic company, gaming isn't even 20% of their whole revenue. They already have plenty of gaming market share, why should they become leaders in that market too? At the very least, Activision Blizzard should be their last acquisition in the gaming space, but you know they won't stop here. 

Last edited by Shatts - on 20 September 2023

Qwark said:

-graph-

From what I can gather from this graph the investment in Traditional software is lower than in 2019 and will be slightly higher in 2025. In which PlayStation will invest more in Live service than Traditional.

Yes, you're reading the graph correctly and simultaneously contradicting your earlier post.