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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - VGC: Switch 2 Was Shown At Gamescom Running Matrix Awakens UE5 Demo

JimmyFantasy said:

I followed the discussion up to this point.
From what I understood, and to summarize the overall expectations about the Switch 2:

- It should perform in the range of 2-3 tflops when docked.
- Thanks to DLSS tech it will upscale resolution at no cost while saving battery life.
- Overall, thanks to DLSS and the extra available resources, "perceived" graphics quality should be comparable to a 4-5 tflops capable machine doing standard rendering.

And this is perfectly fine to me, for a next-gen Switch, the gap in "perceived" visual quality will be in the order of 10x compared to the current Switch with its 0.5 tflops of raw power. Next-gen Nintendo games (and second parties) will look stunning on this new console, while almost all PS5/Xbox games could be ported easily with expected, but not too limiting, graphics downgrades.

If it is running The Matrix Awakens demo ... then yes I would guess we're looking at 2-3 tflops docked. 

Perhaps the Tegra T239 is clocked higher than the Tegra X1 in the Switch was, the Tegra X1 was initially on a very poor 20nm node that ran too hot, but from my understanding something like 5nm production is a lot better, so that can be another area where the Switch 2 benefits in a way the Switch 1 could not. They had to aggressively downclock the Tegra X1, Nvidia was still new to making mobile chips of that nature at the time, it's entirely possible in the 8-9 years that they have learned a few things and maybe a process like 5nm is simply just better than 20nm which not many companies ended up using. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 09 September 2023

Around the Network

The newest rumor is that it has 12GB of unified memory.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Consumer-Nintendo-Switch-2-rumored-to-have-more-RAM-than-the-Xbox-Series-S.747820.0.html



zeldaring said:

Thank you Pemalite. honestly i blame DF they basically explained DLSS like a advertisement, and didn't talk about any of the negatives. Everyone seems to think DLSS gives you double the GPU power magically lol.

There seems to be a subset of users on this forum who cling to buzzwords and run with it without actually understanding what it is or even what it means.

We saw it with the Cell.

We saw it with GDDR5.

We saw it with the ACE units.

We saw it with the PS5's SSD.

We saw it with the WiiU's eDRAM.

We saw it with the Xbox One's eSRAM and the Power of the Cloud.

We literally see it with every single console that gets released. - What does it amount to in the end? Stuff all.

When will people stop falling for it?

sc94597 said:

Sure there is a compute time cost. A cost that was made quite trivial with Ampere, which the Switch 2's GPU is most likely to be an implementation of. 

If you are wondering what one should probably expect with the Switch 2, you can look up any video showcasing an RTX 3050  Laptop with DLSS on vs. off. 

Consider, for example, that an RTX 3050 mobile chip and a GTX 1650 mobile chip are very similar in performance (within 25% of each-other) without DLSS (and about comparable to what we should expect with the Orin ostensibly in the Switch 2.) But almost every tech youtuber recommends the 3050 mobile, solely because DLSS improves performance, by a lot.

Consider that with DLSS the 3050 mobile was able to get over the 60fps threshold, whereas it was averaging 55 fps without DLSS in Red Dead Redemption 2. Similar was done in Watch Dogs Legion, Control, and Call of Duty Warzone.  There was also a significant boost in Shadow of the Tomb Raider. 

We have no idea how the Switch 2's Tegra will stack up against the 3050. It could be multiples cut down and thus worst.


Soundwave said:

I've seen DLSS from 360p it's not like some super secret that only you know about. 

It's not that bad at all. Yes there are some artifacts, but what are we talking about here? Playing high end games on a portable machine? Lots of Switch games today look like a borderline blurry/hazy mess in undocked mode, this looks as good or better image quality wise than several titles on the Switch I could name

On a 7-inch screen for an undocked mode, this wouldn't be that bad at all, it looks better than like DOOM Eternal and Witcher 3 and Xenoblade 3 undocked on Switch even at only 360p to draw from, 540p looks completely playable even on a 4K TV. 

Thanks for the video. If you watch it full screen on a decent display it looks absolutely shocking. Extremely blurry and undefined.

There simply isn't enough data to infer a clean and sharp image from 480P to 1440P/4k.

And I would expect it to look better than other native 360P-540P games on Switch, considering how far less powerful that is, but that doesn't mean 480P DLSS looks "good" by any stretch of the imagination... Native 1080P PS4 looks far cleaner.

May be "playable" for you, but I have better standards it seems.

zeldaring said:

I mean almost every impression i read and even NVDA recommends using it at 1440p. it has to be that while your playing it doesn't look good at all at low resolution using the upscaling.

When moving there is less temporal data to draw from, so the image quality actually degrades, hence the need for higher base resolutions.

But when you stand still, they are able to accumulate data from similar frames and infer a higher quality output.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

I wanted to ask why pemalite determined that the original upscaled image was 360p or 480p without mentioning the next generation switch specifications.
What would happen to the Series S in that case?

I am sorry but his text was too long and I could not quote only the necessary parts.

I was debating those who were thinking they can just run Switch 2 games at 360P and reconstruct it into a 4k image without any issues.
It doesn't look great in the real world.

Obviously Switch 2 specifications haven't been released.

But a mobile device has lower TDP headroom than a fixed console, so the Series S will always retain an advantage... Especially as time goes on and FSR continues to improve.

sc94597 said:

I know it isn't a technological barrier, but was XeSS support announced for consoles? 

Intel has made it platform agnostic. I think the only hard requirement is INT4 support and DP4a when XMX instructions are not available.

I doubt it will ever see wide adoption.

sc94597 said:

And yes, while the Series S does support FSR 2.0, FSR 2.0 still isn't quite as good as DLSS 2.0. So image quality might not be that different either. A Switch 2 game upscaling from say 900p -> 1440p (using DLSS) probably would have better image quality than a Series S game from 900p -> 1440p (with FSR 2.0) and if they both target a locked 30fps, then the Series S having a better CPU probably won't matter much. Modern CPU's barely bottleneck at sub-60fps framerates, and the predicted Switch CPU (8 core A78AE) is a decent enough ARM chip that at those lowish frame-rates it wouldn't matter. 

FSR 3.0 is rolling out currently and that brings with it a plethora of improvements that will benefit the Series S.

sc94597 said:

ARM is also a much more efficient architecture than x86 at low power profiles. 

...Ryzen seems to be doing well on that front.


sc94597 said:

I'd love for the Switch 2 to have a 40hz mode like the Steam Deck. That would be the best sweet-spot in my opinion. 40hz is a huge latency reduction over 30hz, while still being pretty attainable for the hardware.

Would be nice to play Metroid Prime 4 with ray-tracing, DLSS 1080p, at 40hz.

Honestly I would just like a variable refresh rate display in the Switch 2 rather than any fixed arbitrary refresh rate.

That way the display -always- matches the games output, dropped frame? Doesn't matter. You won't notice it.

We can't trust developers to ensure a consistent framerate at 30fps, let-alone 40 or 60fps, let the display make up for that instead.

JimmyFantasy said:


- It should perform in the range of 2-3 tflops when docked.

2-3 Teraflops of what?

RDNA3 where each compute unit is now dual-issue which then introduces contention with resources reducing the performance per-teraflop relative to prior hardware?

Or are you talking about rapid packed math where it's double the teraflop for every single precision teraflop if the instructions are compatible? (Not always compatible, so you never get linear scaling.)

Teraflops truly is a bullshit denominator.

sc94597 said:

The newest rumor is that it has 12GB of unified memory.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Consumer-Nintendo-Switch-2-rumored-to-have-more-RAM-than-the-Xbox-Series-S.747820.0.html

Then Nintendo is likely employing a clamshell memory layout, where 4GB of Ram will operate slower than the 8GB, likely partitioned for the OS/Background tasks, similar to the Series X... Because a 192bit memory bus is a bit much for a cost sensitive mobile chip.

Either way, 12GB isn't unheard of in mobile devices at the moment.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

*grabs popcorn*



Pemalite said:

zeldaring said:

Thank you Pemalite. honestly i blame DF they basically explained DLSS like a advertisement, and didn't talk about any of the negatives. Everyone seems to think DLSS gives you double the GPU power magically lol.

There seems to be a subset of users on this forum who cling to buzzwords and run with it without actually understanding what it is or even what it means.

We saw it with the Cell.

We saw it with GDDR5.

We saw it with the ACE units.

We saw it with the PS5's SSD.

We saw it with the WiiU's eDRAM.

We saw it with the Xbox One's eSRAM and the Power of the Cloud.

We literally see it with every single console that gets released. - What does it amount to in the end? Stuff all.

When will people stop falling for it?

sc94597 said:

Sure there is a compute time cost. A cost that was made quite trivial with Ampere, which the Switch 2's GPU is most likely to be an implementation of. 

If you are wondering what one should probably expect with the Switch 2, you can look up any video showcasing an RTX 3050  Laptop with DLSS on vs. off. 

Consider, for example, that an RTX 3050 mobile chip and a GTX 1650 mobile chip are very similar in performance (within 25% of each-other) without DLSS (and about comparable to what we should expect with the Orin ostensibly in the Switch 2.) But almost every tech youtuber recommends the 3050 mobile, solely because DLSS improves performance, by a lot.

Consider that with DLSS the 3050 mobile was able to get over the 60fps threshold, whereas it was averaging 55 fps without DLSS in Red Dead Redemption 2. Similar was done in Watch Dogs Legion, Control, and Call of Duty Warzone.  There was also a significant boost in Shadow of the Tomb Raider. 

We have no idea how the Switch 2's Tegra will stack up against the 3050. It could be multiples cut down and thus worst.


Soundwave said:

I've seen DLSS from 360p it's not like some super secret that only you know about. 

It's not that bad at all. Yes there are some artifacts, but what are we talking about here? Playing high end games on a portable machine? Lots of Switch games today look like a borderline blurry/hazy mess in undocked mode, this looks as good or better image quality wise than several titles on the Switch I could name

On a 7-inch screen for an undocked mode, this wouldn't be that bad at all, it looks better than like DOOM Eternal and Witcher 3 and Xenoblade 3 undocked on Switch even at only 360p to draw from, 540p looks completely playable even on a 4K TV. 

Thanks for the video. If you watch it full screen on a decent display it looks absolutely shocking. Extremely blurry and undefined.

There simply isn't enough data to infer a clean and sharp image from 480P to 1440P/4k.

And I would expect it to look better than other native 360P-540P games on Switch, considering how far less powerful that is, but that doesn't mean 480P DLSS looks "good" by any stretch of the imagination... Native 1080P PS4 looks far cleaner.

May be "playable" for you, but I have better standards it seems.

zeldaring said:

I mean almost every impression i read and even NVDA recommends using it at 1440p. it has to be that while your playing it doesn't look good at all at low resolution using the upscaling.

When moving there is less temporal data to draw from, so the image quality actually degrades, hence the need for higher base resolutions.

But when you stand still, they are able to accumulate data from similar frames and infer a higher quality output.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

I wanted to ask why pemalite determined that the original upscaled image was 360p or 480p without mentioning the next generation switch specifications.
What would happen to the Series S in that case?

I am sorry but his text was too long and I could not quote only the necessary parts.

I was debating those who were thinking they can just run Switch 2 games at 360P and reconstruct it into a 4k image without any issues.
It doesn't look great in the real world.

Obviously Switch 2 specifications haven't been released.

But a mobile device has lower TDP headroom than a fixed console, so the Series S will always retain an advantage... Especially as time goes on and FSR continues to improve.

Where was anyone talking about 360p or 480p before you?

Perhaps they were earlier in the thread, but yeah, I didn't think it was that old news.

Yes, I see that Soundwave wrote 360p or 540p alone at the beginning of the thread, but it was not discussed.
In other words, there was no one else.

Just after my comment to you, Soundwave wrote 360p or 540p again. 

If you had your own knowledge and opinion, you would not have had to concur with Soundwave's estimates.

It was your idea that the next gen Switch would run at 480p and you never answered my question as to how the Series S would run in that case.

And later you admitted that you did not know the specifications of the next generation Switch.

And you don't know the specs, but somehow you seem to have decided that the next gen switches will be powered by 15 W. Seems odd, don't you think?

And I don't understand why you think that next gen SWITCH upscaling doesn't work, but Series S does.

Perhaps it's because the original upscaled resolution of the Series S is 900P or 1080P, while the next-gen switches are supposed to be 360P or 480P.
In this case, the expected power gap is 4x to 9x.

Series S is rdna2 1280 cores
The next generation switch is assumed to have 1536 amp cores.

Even if the tdp of the switch is 15 W, such a gap will not happen.

And you know there are very few FSR titles on Xbox. Let's also consider that the next gen Switch will sell much better than the Series S.
DLSS support should be much greater than Xbox.

In other words, many multiplat games will support DLSS on the Switch, but not FSR on the Series S.

It's easy to imagine which would perform better in this case.

Last edited by Oneeee-Chan!!! - on 09 September 2023

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Speaking of rumored technical specifications, these are the latest leaks I read (alleged Nvidia developer, Linux4Tegra) on the Switch 2 chip.

T239 Drake (custom)
cpu 8x Arm A78C (single cluster)
gpu with 12 SMs, 1536 CUDA cores,
12 RT cores (1x SM), 48 Tensor cores (4x SM),
2.5 tflops (fp32)



I don't believe Pema is claiming xbox scaling is superior. Many are viewing scaling as some sort of exclusive Nintendo major advantage... it isn't. Scaling is available to all console. Sony has been using checkerboarding for quite a long time now.

I would also point out (again) scaling is a tool.  It isn't a hardware switch that just happens.  Meaning scaling benefits are going to be largely driven by the software developers.  



Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Where was anyone talking about 360p or 480p before you?

Perhaps they were earlier in the thread, but yeah, I didn't think it was that old news.

Yes, I see that Soundwave wrote 360p or 540p alone at the beginning of the thread, but it was not discussed.
In other words, there was no one else.

It was mentioned literally multiple times before me. I did quote it and reply to it if you actually bothered to read it.

The fact you then recognized that and still painted me to be the bad guy? What kind of screwed up logic is that?

The

Here is the evidence:


Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

You are a moderator.
Let's not lie.

I am a user first.
Not once was my "moderator" status in question, so don't swing such logical fallacies around.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

And you don't know the specs, but somehow you seem to have decided that the next gen switches will be powered by 15 W. Seems odd, don't you think?

Not once did I mention the wattage of the Switch.
Because like you alluded to "I don't know the specs". - Not sure how you came to this conclusion, perhaps you have gotten confused with another post?

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

And I don't understand why you think that next gen SWITCH upscaling doesn't work, but Series S does.

That isn't what I am saying at all.

Upscaling does work. - Games have literally been upscaled for decades.

However I am pointing out that using "data" from "previous frames" to "rebuild a higher resolution image" requires a certain level of "information" to be effective. - The lower your resolution, literally the less information you have to work with.

I have not made any assertions on what resolution the next-gen Switch will be running at and whether upscaling will be effective or not. - Just pointing out some obvious facts as a PC gamer who has used XeSS, FSR and DLSS and experimented with this stuff.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Perhaps it's because the original upscaled resolution of the Series S is 900P or 1080P, while the next-gen switches are supposed to be 360P or 480P.
In this case, the expected power gap is 4x to 9x.

We have no idea what the hardware is. So you cannot make any assertions on what resolution the Switch 2 will run at or what the Power gap will be.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Series S is rdna2 1280 cores
The next generation switch is assumed to have 1536 amp cores.

We have no information on what hardware the next-generation Switch is running with.

But it's not JUST about 'cores' or 'teraflops'.

You can have a GPU with more cores, end up slower than one with less.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Even if the tdp of the switch is 15 W, such a gap will not happen.

We have no idea what the TDP of the Switch 2 is.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

And you know there are very few FSR titles on Xbox. 

FSR 2.0 has only been out for about a year.
So of course it's take-up-rate will be limited.

But Starfield showcases the technology.

Buuut... According to IGN, over 110 games support FSR on console.
https://www.ign.com/articles/amds-fsr-20-is-now-available-for-xbox-series-xs-and-xbox-one-developers

Whether that is a significant enough number to you however is up for debate.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

Let's also consider that the next gen Switch will sell much better than the Series S.

The Switch 2 hasn't been released and we are unable to determine if it's going to be successful yet.

It's called that "evidence" thing. That annoying thing that seems to get in your way.

What if Nintendo has another WiiU moment? Food for thought.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

In other words, many multiplat games will support DLSS on the Switch, but not FSR on the Series S.

Like the evidence I provided prior, there are 110 FSR supported games. (Actually more considering that link/article is now a year old.)

But unlike DLSS... FSR is NOT tied to the Xbox ecosystem.

FSR is on: PC, Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo... There are even Billions of Android devices that support AMD's FSR via Vulkan.

DLSS? Probably not going to have the same kind of mass-market penetration that FSR will achieve due to it's hardware-agnostic nature.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

To assume that Xbox's FSR is better than, let alone equal to, the next generation Switch's DLSS is simply wrong.

I never asserted that FSR is technically superior to the Switch's DLSS. - Did you even bother to read my posts?
Infact, I stated the opposite that DLSS has the technical edge in visual quality.

Nintendo also gets FSR as well.

But here is the thing... Not all games on the Switch 2 if it had hardware DLSS support, will use DLSS.

Want to know why? Because it's up to the developer. It's a tool.

Some developers may opt to use FSR instead due to ease of porting across different platforms, that's the reality of the situation.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Gee I wonder if every PS5 leak thread had PC enthusiasts coming into it and saying "well dur hur, it won't run at 120 fps, 4K and look just like the master PC version, so lol it doesn't count, only 10.8 teraflops! Ha what a lame piece of hardware,, not even fully RDNA2. I need to come in here and lower your expectations because I'm the fun police".

Like how big of a loser would you have to be to come into every thread about say a different platform and try to shut down discussion. Interesting how it's only Nintendo platforms that have to put up with this. 

Especially funny when like 80% of the crap being said is disproven straight away with simple Youtube searches of people doing things that we're told "nah that can't be done, not possible", "well like here's a video of it y'know like totally actually being done", "well that doesn't count because of new reasons I just invented". lulz. 

~ User was warned for this post. ~ Pemalite.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 10 September 2023

sc94597 said:

The newest rumor is that it has 12GB of unified memory.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Consumer-Nintendo-Switch-2-rumored-to-have-more-RAM-than-the-Xbox-Series-S.747820.0.html

 I hope so but still betting on 8.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!