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Machiavellian said:
sundin13 said:

The immigration bill seems remarkably conservative given the position the Dems were in just a couple years ago. If Trump gets elected to office, the chance of them voting for a near identical bill drops precipitously imo.

Personally, I don't know how I feel about it. Some bits of it I support, but a lot of other bits seem to go too far. Given the scope of the problem, I don't believe this is the solution, but I can't say for sure whether or not it is better than nothing.

Maybe that is the point.  Make this bill the love letter the GOP has always talked about they wanted but never actually did anything to do it so that when it times to campaign and they nix it, its something the Dems and Biden can use to show that the GOP is all talk but really no action.

Yeah, politically, I can only really see this as a good move for the Dems. Shows that the Republicans are all talk and a dysfunctional mess. 

But I won't be crying when this bill goes to the graveyard. 



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sundin13 said:
Machiavellian said:

Maybe that is the point.  Make this bill the love letter the GOP has always talked about they wanted but never actually did anything to do it so that when it times to campaign and they nix it, its something the Dems and Biden can use to show that the GOP is all talk but really no action.

Yeah, politically, I can only really see this as a good move for the Dems. Shows that the Republicans are all talk and a dysfunctional mess. 

But I won't be crying when this bill goes to the graveyard. 

It will, as we all know in politics doing anything that makes the other party look good is never a good thing.  That is why nothing ever gets done unless one party or the other has full control of both congress and the president office.



Machiavellian said:
sundin13 said:

Yeah, politically, I can only really see this as a good move for the Dems. Shows that the Republicans are all talk and a dysfunctional mess. 

But I won't be crying when this bill goes to the graveyard. 

It will, as we all know in politics doing anything that makes the other party look good is never a good thing.  That is why nothing ever gets done unless one party or the other has full control of both congress and the president office.

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?

...Because it matters? Context, track records, and historical accuracy are important aspects of functional politics.

Shtinamin_ said:

Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?

Depends on what you consider 'better' and more importantly how you think we should go about achieving that. Bringing up 'legal US citizens' as if seeking asylum isn't a legal, constitutional act or the fact that immigrants commit crime at significantly lower rates than US citizens leads me to think you're not actually looking at immigration through an unbiased lens.

Shtinamin_ said:


Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Partisanship and tribalism, but one side is objectively WAY more guilty of this than the other. Look at just about any procedure in congress and see who's really interested in working together or not. This latest immigration bill is a fine example but my favorite would have to be the Jan 6th investigation where Democrats offered Republicans a perfect 50/50 split in representation and Republicans still said no specifically so they could then turn around and cry victim when the resulting committee wasn't an even split. For as much as the right claims the left is dividing the country they couldn't be projecting any harder.

Shtinamin_ said:

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Gee I wonder where you got this buzzword and how it affects your opinion of the LGBT community and alternative lifestyles...



Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

I mean, just kidding with you, amigo.

Or not.



 

 

 

 

 

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Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Because:

- some people don't want to work as part of a team, they want to enrich themselves at the cost of others. For example, the interests of oil companies are at odds with the interests of other energy companies like solar. 

(Without even including that plenty of people are racist or sexist, etc. plenty of conservatives are open about how they want transgender murdered. I have a family member who has openly said they want slavery to come back.)

- some people genuinely do want to make things better, but they have completely backwards, dangerous ideas on how to do so.

Shtinamin_ said:

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Nah. 

Pride is definitely an issue, sure.  



Shtinamin_ said:

[...] the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Criticizing the "dysfunction of the family unit" as others have said often sounds like a bit of a dog whistle, but I would like you to explain what you mean by this before I respond to it or criticize. So, care to explain plainly what "the dysfunction of the family unit" means to you?



TallSilhouette said:
Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?

...Because it matters? Context, track records, and historical accuracy are important aspects of functional politics.

Shtinamin_ said:

Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?

Depends on what you consider 'better' and more importantly how you think we should go about achieving that. Bringing up 'legal US citizens' as if seeking asylum isn't a legal, constitutional act or the fact that immigrants commit crime at significantly lower rates than US citizens leads me to think you're not actually looking at immigration through an unbiased lens.

Shtinamin_ said:


Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Partisanship and tribalism, but one side is objectively WAY more guilty of this than the other. Look at just about any procedure in congress and see who's really interested in working together or not. This latest immigration bill is a fine example but my favorite would have to be the Jan 6th investigation where Democrats offered Republicans a perfect 50/50 split in representation and Republicans still said no specifically so they could then turn around and cry victim when the resulting committee wasn't an even split. For as much as the right claims the left is dividing the country they couldn't be projecting any harder.

Shtinamin_ said:

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Gee I wonder where you got this buzzword and how it affects your opinion of the LGBT community and alternative lifestyles...

That is not a buzzword. That is prophecy.

I am trying to see things in an unbiased sense, which is why I asked those questions.

sundin13 said:
Shtinamin_ said:

[...] the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Criticizing the "dysfunction of the family unit" as others have said often sounds like a bit of a dog whistle, but I would like you to explain what you mean by this before I respond to it or criticize. So, care to explain plainly what "the dysfunction of the family unit" means to you?

I should have used the word disintegration, I hope you can excuse my lack of using the correct term (I was trying to remember the word disintegration but couldn't until now).
The disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations great calamities. Hence why I said the destruction of the United States of America.

I don't care what people are told to do (in a informational setting), I personally like to learn for myself, ponder the studying, and find examples, and understand what will be a consequence (good or bad). No one likes a sheeple.

In order for me to fully explain, I would have to go to topics that aren't political, so I'll just give the basic idea.
I firmly believe that the family is a fundamental unit in society. A common family is one with a man and a woman legally bonded in matrimony, that respect and preserve their marital vows with complete fidelity, with the want to have children (and eventually, hopefully, do), and the parents teach their children. Both parents are to help one another as equal partners as well. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.

I search for responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere (and hopefuly they are some) that promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

Shtinamin_ said:
Machiavellian said:

It will, as we all know in politics doing anything that makes the other party look good is never a good thing.  That is why nothing ever gets done unless one party or the other has full control of both congress and the president office.

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

You must be new to politics.  Politics is about message.  If you can say you did this that make people believe it helped them you get support.  The message doesn't even have to be true as long as you can convince people that it is true.  So in politics, if you belong to one party and the other party is in control, you stifle everything that would benefit everyone because it makes the other party look good and they stay in power.  You are trying to apply logic to the process but your logic only really work if both parties actually did not seek power but instead seek improvement to the country.



Machiavellian said:
Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

You must be new to politics.  Politics is about message.  If you can say you did this that make people believe it helped them you get support.  The message doesn't even have to be true as long as you can convince people that it is true.  So in politics, if you belong to one party and the other party is in control, you stifle everything that would benefit everyone because it makes the other party look good and they stay in power.  You are trying to apply logic to the process but your logic only really work if both parties actually did not seek power but instead seek improvement to the country.

So why do people need to be in a party?



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.