The issue is you said it was a 'simple fact' that they never released an album like The Black Album, then you then admitted you don't actually know their full catalogue. How could you say it's a fact if you don't actually know their whole catalogue? Listen to Cryptic Writings and (especially) Risk, and tell me they didn't release a commercial album.

It gets a lot of flack for not being "heavy enough" or the band selling out with their MTV corporate style haircuts or whatever. But at the end of the day all I care about is the music and Load has some good stuff. Wouldn't really call it a "metal" album (aside from maybe Wasting My Hate) but it's actually great on the merits of a *hard rock* album.

I grew up with Iron Maiden (Seventh Son being last one I bought, and kinda liked it), Metallica (Justice being last, didn't like it) and Slayer (South of Heaven as last, liked it)...with brief excursion into Kreator (only first two albums). I had a friend who listened all metal from that period he could get his hands on, so I had limited exposure to Megadeth, but it never really caught on. And then around '89-90 I pretty much dropped all metal.

That's because if they had indeed released an album like the "Black" one, it would be common knowledge and the press would talk a bit about it, specially in the 90s. Also, it's one thing to do a more "commercial" LP, but maintaining your core musical values; it's a totally different one to stray completely away from those values for the sake of selling more. But you seem to not be convinced that the Black album is more than just something more "commercial" or "approachable", and that is fine. I never treated that particular album as something just more "commercial" - you did, if I remember correctly. But that is also okay. I maintain that as far as I'm concerned Megadeth never released a black album of sorts. Your examples do not change that perception to me, and, like I said, being a bit more commercial is not the same as the debacle that the Black Album was related to Metallica's past until then. We could have more people weigh in, but this will be the last I say about this topic.

Yeah, I think we'll end up going round in circles otherwise, so I'll leave it here as well.

Like I said, Countdown to Extinction is better than the Black Album. Both were certainly departures from each bands previous works. But, Countdown was still an album that metalheads of the time were into. The black album is where many metalheads got off the Metallica train, myself included.

That said, Megadeth did make a conscious attempt to make their music more commercially appealing *after* Countdown. Mustaine has admitted this. One could argue that Countdown was also an attempt to get more mainstream success. But, afaik, Mustaine has not admitted to that.

Yeah, I can agree with this.

Going from AJFA to the black album was just devastating.  I mean, you know something's wrong when the jocks are now playing Metallica at the high-school keg parties.  Megadeth never fell quite that far from one album to the next, although Countdown is still a massive drop in quality from RIP in my opinion.  I did like Youthanasia more though and I've heard a bit of their later material here and there that sounds ok.

But as much grief as I give Metallica's black album, nothing could have prepared me for what they produced next.  I don't mean to upset any fans of Load but that album is absolutely horrible.  It's not because it's not as heavy or too simple... it's just garbage.  And St. Anger is probably even worse.  My opinion, of course.

I'd like to think that if Cliff had never passed away, Metallica would have remained the same four members for many albums after Master of Puppets and progressed into an even greater band as opposed to what they devolved into.

I think the hate for Black Album is somewhat overblown, especially with albums like Reload, St. Anger, and Lulu that have come out since then, which make the album look like gold haha. Maybe I'm a bit biased as it was one of my first Tallica albums.

Granted I can definitely see how they watered down and "commercialized" much of the material compared to the more interesting, dynamic stuff on the previous 4 albums. But I'm fine mixing things up as long as the music is still good and catchy, which most of the Black Album is. I do think Sad But True is extremely overrated and I really don't understand why the band feels the need to play the track for virtually *every* freakin live show for decades.. Nothing Else Matters, while good in its own way, is so soft if almost seems like a different band. Enter Sandman I also find very overrated. But as a whole it's a solid heavy metal/hard rock album.

Not every song needs to be uber complex, 8-9 minute compositions, and Tallica still manages to craft some catchy, interesting songs that are a more digestible 3-4 minutes. I wouldn't have wanted *every* album going forward to be like that, and I'm glad they sort of went back to the harder, more complex thrash-ish roots with Death Magnetic and Hardwired, but I'm still glad they made the record.

both :)

Agreed.

That said, it wouldn't have mattered what came next. Anything would have been a big drop from the quality of Rust in Peace. 

Megadeth has some decent stuff made over the last 25 years. But, definitely they peaked with RiP, and the drop off was pretty big after the mid-90s.