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Forums - Politics Discussion - The US is ranked as a 'Flawed Democracy', what needs to change?

Analysis on where the US political parties sit on the spectrum of World politics, generally speaking the "far left" of AOC in the US sits closer to the Centre/Centre left in many countries in Europe 



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Eagle367 said:
Runa216 said:

I've always been curious about something but I wonder if the US and the rest of the world are using a different definition of left and right wing politics. 

Anarchy is the most extreme version of far right politics while Fascism is ironically near the farthest end of the left, with a dictatorship being I believe the farthest left. And that's not some sort of cultural hot take, it is the truth by definition. 

Right wing politics are about LESS government involvement in one's life and country. Less control, fewer restrictions, less taxes, fewer laws, and more freedom to do whatever they want while getting the least help/interference from the government. extreme right wing politics strive for less government. So, by logical extremism, Anarchy (The idea of a decentralized or nonexistent system in place to control people) is the farthest right you can go because it basically turns the world into a lawless hellscape where anyone can do anything. 

Left-wing politics are about MORE government involvement and control and influence. So, Ironically, fascism is a far left ideal where a political party has a charismatic leader that has a death grip on the laws and regulations of the land. Starting from Center it goes Democracy, socialism, Communism, fascism, then dictatorship. On the right it goes Demoracy, capitalism, then a few steps before Anarchy. 

The irony here is that Trump was absolutely a figurehead of fascism, in a party that unironically hates the left even though it seems nobody actually knows what left vs right actually means. 

Furthermore, what people don't understand is that slightly left of center is the best because it basically gives people most or all of the freedoms they want while only stopping people from doing things that are deemed irresponsible or bad. You know, criminal law, market regulations, etc. The right treats anything 'to the left' as some sort of dystopia where they have no freedoms but the actual purpose of government is to ensure the best outcome for the largest number of people, and 99% of the time that means shit like pumping money into education and social services and healthcare and all that. It means fixing the roads and making the world safe. 

Republicans just hate the idea of paying more in taxes because they don't see the bigger picture. They don't see that if everyone pitches in then everyone benefits, because they hate the idea that someone who they feel didn't earn it also gets helped. To them it's not a collective benefit, it's the gub-mint taking money from their pockets and giving it to someone who doesn't deserve it. 

the idea that 'someone who doesn't deserve it' is Black lives or Mexicans or trans people (as a distinctly republican take) is pretty recent.

Which is why I said for years that Republicans used to be generally decent people who simply had a different take on how budgets should be allocated whereas now they're mostly racist or xenophobic. It's also why they like to use the 'it was the democrats who did slavery and the republicans who saved us' narrative. Because in the past, it absolutely was democrats who were using the extra government control to perpetuate racism and lots of shitty shitty shit. 

But trying to explain all of this to anyone is basically a waste of time because I've learned that, for the most part, people are just smart enough to learn how to justify their attitudes and behaviours while just missing the level of self-awareness needed to re-assess one's actual stance or be willing to reconsider. I try to not act like I'm superior or that I'm 'smarter than you' (With 'you' being the royal you, not you in particular, Eagleman), but every time I look around I'm so astoundingly baffled at how much people are actively avoiding the point or the historical context or the science behind things. I hate that we live in a world where everything is 'us vs them', but I hate even more that we live in a world where WAY too many people are outright villains. I WANT to understand. I want to work together, but it's so hard to do that when so many people are unwilling to even humour the idea that maybe their understanding of the issue was tainted by the fact they didn't 'get' some of the facts or were internally misrepresenting the historical context surrounding it. 

So even when people on 'my' side get things wrong, I feel like I have to correct them. Not to be smug or anything, but to ensure everyone has equal access to the right information. HArd data and proper interpretation of that data guided by ample historical context and nuance. All of that matters, and it's so easy to pinpoint one bad fact or data point to prove even a wrong argument. And like here, I think the core concept of 'left' vs 'right' politics needs to be corrected. 

Unless I am misinterpreting something you said. In which case, do correct me. I still think the context needs to be shared. 

What? What? What? That Iis objectively wrong. Mate you need to look into politics. Fascism is far right and anarchism is far left everywhere in the world. I am not American. Nazis, Italian Fascists, imperial Japan were all far right. 

You are the one confused. Trump is fascist and so it the Republican party and they are far right. That is fascism. Same with Putin, Orban, Modhi. They are far right aka fascists. If you wanna go farther right maybe monarchists. 

"Anarcho-capitalists" aren't anarchists. 

You want actual left to right its anarchist, communists, socialists, socdems, liberal, neoliberal, conservative, neoconservative, right libertarian, "anarcho-capitalists"( basically same as libertarians with fancy name), fascists, monarchists. There are others but that is broadly the universal left to right axis. 

That is why it's laughable that anyone thinks the "far left" exists in the US. Far left people don't believe in nations and state. They don't belive in money. They want the elimination of all hierarchies. They have no power in the US. 

Edit:  learn about anarchy please: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#:~:text=Anarchy%20is%20a%20society%20without,%22an%20absence%20of%20government%22.

It's about eliminating hierarchies. The bolded in your reply is not anarchy. 

Anarchy IS far right - if we look at the US politics, we have the republican right wing being anachists, and democratic party center-right (pretty much what the European right wing is), and if US had a faschist party, it would be the left wing party. Faschists are heavy with left wing politics, and the reason why faschism is non-existent i  today's world, is because the liberal democracies adopted faschist policies after WW2.



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yeah I'm doing a bit of reading and getting mixed signals. in college I took Law and civics as my optional courses and the 'right = less government, left = more government' was the core tenets of it all. Anarchy is, at its core, the least government possible, yet I'm reading now that they're left? I don't quite get that. Something isn't adding up. must do more reading.

Keep in mind I'm Canadian. As I'm reading, it seems there's a bit of confusion about what right/left means in different parts of the world.



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Runa216 said:

yeah I'm doing a bit of reading and getting mixed signals. in college I took Law and civics as my optional courses and the 'right = less government, left = more government' was the core tenets of it all. Anarchy is, at its core, the least government possible, yet I'm reading now that they're left? I don't quite get that. Something isn't adding up. must do more reading.

Keep in mind I'm Canadian. As I'm reading, it seems there's a bit of confusion about what right/left means in different parts of the world.

I think that's a common definition among a lot of Americans, and probably the English speaking world in general. 

But that's not the distinction that most political science people would use. 

There's lots of different words that I've seen people use to describe left vs right: change vs tradition, supporting or opposing a hierarchy is a pretty defining one.

The big reason why people say that anarcho-capitalism isn't anarchist, is because capitalism demands a hierarchy (people with more money have more power), and anarchy isn't so much about there not being a state, but not having a hierarchy whatsoever.  An anarcho-capitalist isn't demanding there be no hierarchy, just that instead of a state, the hierarchy is perpetuated by an elite class. Kind of cutting out the middleman of elected officials.  



Hiku said:
ConservagameR said:
Jumpin said:

In case anyone missed it, this is Conservagamer showing that not even in a picture worth a thousand words can he find a lick of evidence for his argument of people being silenced.

The EIU lists the US as a flawed democracy, but freedom of speech is the one area the country does exceedingly well in—scoring 9.58/10 on the EIU’s democracy index.

Why did Elon and Kanye not care at all about control over social media, only being able to use it themselves, until somewhat recently?

Why did they then both go out of their way to spend ridiculous amounts of money to have full control over these so called free speech platforms?

To fix them because so many people are being wrongly silenced, and to own the platforms themselves to make sure they won't ever be silenced.

Want to make sure that you or others can speak freely? Don't rely on democratic rights or morals, instead rely on the free market and capitalism to make yourself (tens of) billions of dollars, otherwise you very well may be kept quiet.

Define wrongly silenced?
Because Twitter decides who and what they want to give their microphone to. What is right or wrong on their platform has to adhere to their community guidfelines and terms of service.

Should anyone be able to say anything they like, including death threats and harassment?
Do you think every person we've ever moderated on this forum was wrongly silenced as well?
Because if your answer is no, then understand that this isn't an issue of a universal right or wrong, but that different people will draw the lines differently.

And to answer your rhetorical question, Musk and Kanye are interested in erasing that line for things like hate speech and baseless/harmful missinformation.
And I don't think that's admirable.

If Elon takes Twitter and makes it so that anyone who seems to be on the (far) left gets kicked off and silenced, because enough users are complaining, that would be wrong, for example.

You can't really argue community guidelines, because those change depending on who's in charge, and we all know they'll change at Twitter, potentially vastly, once Elon is in charge. So were the old guidelines wrong, or will the new guidelines be wrong?

This is why the free market and capitalism are both so great and so terrible. It allows for businesses like Twitter to exist, and it also allows them to be purchased and changed. Which is better or worse depends on your personal outlook.

You know there are laws about certain speech, but few laws, as the more speech you can justly allow, the better. There are also rights, both of which, including laws, aren't always upheld and aren't always punished as they should be. How do we fix that? More policing at different levels? Isn't that a bad thing?

I agree they will erase some lines, which is good, depending on what's erased. When you have people like Mark Zuck, admitting the FBI was giving him a heads up to squash upcoming stories that are likely misinformation, only to find out they were always legit, that's a big deal and needs to be fixed. The way to fix it is to allow media to choose what to allow and what not to, without being pressured by the government or authorities, because that can go both ways.



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JackHandy said:

It's not a flawed democracy, it's a flawed republic. But even so, it's the flaws that make it what it is and allow it to change and grow and bend its way along. So I don't think anything needs to change. There has always been periods of social and political upheaval in the US. We're in one right now. Soon, it'll be over and things will carry on as usual.

You’re conflating two separate things. The US is called a Republic because its head of state isn’t a Monarch. It’s also a democracy because its government is from the people.

For example, countries like Sweden, the UK, Denmark are not republics because their heads of state are monarchs, while countries like Germany, France, and the US are republics because their heads of state are not monarchs. At the same time, all six of these countries are democracies.



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bdbdbd said:
Eagle367 said:

Then you don't really like democracy and want it to fall. Let's speedrun the end of democracy. Especially since people lie about their intentions and voters don't know that they are voting for a monarchist. A democracy that doesn't protect itself is a short democracy. 

No, I don't. It's the people who don't like democracy if they vote for abolishing it. If you don't let someone who's intentions are to abolish democracy to run for a position where this someone can do so, then YOU don't like democracy and want it to fall. You can't protect democracy by preventing it from happening. 

Also, monarchy does not contradict democracy. 

Think for a second. And sorry but every system requires active effort to be protected. If you don't stop anti democratic movements, your democracy will die pretty quickly. You don't like democracy if you won't do the bare minimum to protect it. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

People need to learn political theory. Left isn't less government and right isn't more government. Thats not how this works. The point is about how they handle policies and hierarchies and rigidness and a lot of factors. This is like the meme "socialism is when government does stuff and communism is when it does more stuff". That's a joke we make to make fun of people who don't understanding political and economic theory. And there isn't variation across the globe its the same. Anarchists are far left in US, pakistan, Japan, Ethiopia, Russia, Spain, Australia, etc. Fascism is far right anywhere. Anarchism is about flattening hierarchies, socialism is about workers owning the means of production, Communism is about the removal of state, money and class, liberalism is the enlightenment values and differing opinions of that make you a socdem, liberal, neoliberal, neoconservative, con, and that state and all of them are capitalist in mode of production. Fascism was defined by humberto eco's 14 points, libertarianism and "anarcho-capitalism" are things that can't work and will fall apart. Monarchism and those far right things are usually about serfdom and the like. That is true monarchism.

So yeah left wing if you could make it seem as simple as possible is about moving forward towards flattening hierarchies and right wing is about enacting more and more hierarchies even going back towards the most hierarchic system humanity ever had aka serfdom and slavery.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

the-pi-guy said:
ConservagameR said:

Where did I say Elon was silenced? I simply referred you to him as his more recent situations are very much about this as a whole.

I personally don't find him attempting to help Ukraine with Starlink as authoritarian or propaganda, but you're free to think that if that's your view.

Kanye isn't just scared, it's clear an attempt is being made to keep him quiet and to cancel him. I don't believe Elon has expressed worry, but to think he isn't worried whatsoever would be naive given who has been shut out of social media.

>Where did I say Elon was silenced?

You shared a picture of him when I asked who was silenced. 

>personally don't find him attempting to help Ukraine with Starlink as authoritarian or propaganda

Has nothing to do with starlink.

Has to do with a tweet he made where he said what Ukraine should do. 

No one is getting cancelled for having conservative views. No one has ever gotten cancelled for arguing for lower taxes. People are getting consequences for things like hate speech. 

Our words have consequences, spreading misinformation can get people killed. People have died from vaccine misinformation. Hate speech against trans, gay, or other minorities gets people riled up. 

I didn't think of the need to at the time as it seemed obvious to me. You misunderstood. So I gave more detail. Are we clear now?

You never explained what Elon said that was a problem. That was my best guess. I need more detail. Apparently we both do.

Maybe you should go look at my last post in the Official Politics OT, and try to explain how it led to me being banned from that thread.

The US Politics |OT| (vgchartz.com)

I'll save you some time. I had been using conversative viewpoints with that individual, which eventually led to that innocent final post I got banned for.

Yes, spreading misinformation can get people killed, like with the vax, but some others who weren't viewing or hearing misinformation, still were injured or died from the vax anyway, so how much of a roll does misinformation play with those deaths then?

Driving with a seatbelt could save your life, but could also get you killed. If your car flips and starts on fire and you're trapped due to your seatbelt, does that mean seatbelts are a problem and should be removed? Obviously not. Most of the time the seatbelt will save you from injury or death, so it's better to have them, but what should be optional is wearing them. Being forced to wear one could save you, or kill you. Just like allowing people to choose whether or not to get jabbed. Just like allowing what may or may not be misinformation on media.

I think Paatar would agree from earlier in this thread about minorities. Treated so poorly they quit posting. I found that quite sad.



JackHandy said:
Ka-pi96 said:

What do you think the difference is?

democracy (countable and uncountable, plural democracies)

(uncountable) Rule by the people, especially as a form of government; either directly or through elected representatives (representative democracy).

(countable, government) A government under the direct or representative rule of the people of its jurisdiction.

republic (plural republics)

A state where sovereignty rests with the people or their representatives, rather than with a monarch or emperor; a country with no monarchy. The United States is a republic; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a constitutional monarchy.

The US is both a democracy and a republic. You can be a democracy without being a republic, eg. the UK. But every republic is a democracy.

The US is a federal republic. 

Yes AND a democracy.