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Forums - Politics Discussion - The US is ranked as a 'Flawed Democracy', what needs to change?

Ashadelo said:

When you have people like Biden in power no one takes the US seriously anymore. You have no idea how many mock videos I see on 微博,抖音,微信 etc making him out to be an absolute airhead. Yes, I know they are all government funded and run, but still. His whole party is a joke on the world stage, just look at the US recent relationship with Saudi Arabia shows the world that no one takes the US seriously anymore.

Biden seems like he's not fully there at times due to age, but Trump was literally laughed at by world leaders.

He often makes himself sound like an insecure unintelligent narccisist with bizzare unsubstantiated claims.
Those speeches may work on the MAGA crowd, but in a room full of people who are probably mostly academics and qualified for these positions, you instead get this situation where they failed to contain their laughter.

Other times world leaders were caught on tape making fun of how dumb he is. And several of his former close associates described him as an idiot after they left.

But if that was all, it wouldn't be as big of a problem. He also actively weakened USA's relations to UN and NATO allies, expressing desire to leave the alliance. Which is very much against the west's interests, and what Putin (and China) would like to see.

So I'm not surprised if Biden is more heavily critisized in China and Russia than Trump was.



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RolStoppable said:
Chrkeller said:

Same is true with liberals and the far left.  

The middle doesn't exist anymore.  

I don't know about that. I don't see the democrats who are in charge pushing far-left policies. The republicans, however, did go for far-right policies when Trump was president, and since then the republican party has not only stayed on this course, but even doubled down on it.

It's not that the middle doesn't exist anymore in the USA, rather it's that the middle has been absorbed by the democratic party. Nowadays the republicans are the party for racists and people who don't mind to associate themselves with racists.

You have to keep in mind, that from the European perspective with its much broader spread of the political spectrum due to much more than two political parties in each country, the democrats in the USA qualify as a party with conservative policies, so they are on the right side of the center. That's why there's no serious threat that the far-left could get major influence in American politics and why your post is misguided at best.

It's very annoying when people try to both sides things. People think AOC and Bernie are the "far left". And forget many dems are right of centre. It's just the republican have gone so far right they are into fascism. And also, is anarchism as bad as fascism? And does anarchism have any power anywhere? That's the far left. Do actual communists have any power? Do socialists have any power or representation? Socialists aren't even the far left. And what's bad or scary about socialism? Are the "far left" and "far right" equally dangerous? 

The furthest left the US has with any real power I'd a guy who wants to give universal Healthcare and wants a progressive tax system plus affordable education.  That's the middle for Americans if you poll them. So where is the "far left" again? 



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Ka-pi96 said:
Eagle367 said:

I did address it. Having criteria for who gets to run. Countries have them already. Like you wouldn't let a treasonous traitor run right? What about someone who wants another country to take over yours? What you said describes why these people need to be stopped because they can win one legitimate election and then slowly chip away and destroy democracy. That's what Orban did, Modhi is doing it, erdogan did it, Trump wanted to do it, Putin did it. Your democracy doesn't survive if you have no protections against anti democratic agents.

Answer this question, should a monarchist be allowed to run in an election when they promise to destroy the democracy that will give them power and institute themselves as supreme leader?

Yeah, that's exactly how China and russia run their elections. They don't let those that they consider "treasonous traitors" run. I'm not sure copying those countries should be considered a good thing for democratic nations...

Yes, the monarchist should be allowed to run. I people vote for them then them winning is democratic. A lot of people are stupid and vote against their own interests, but part of democracy is still allowing those people to vote.

You keep ignoring what I am saying and making bad comparisons that you know are disingenuous.  You are taking away democracy from the people if you let a monarchist or fascist run. Your democracy won't survive. The putin example you made, it's exactly how putin got in power in the first place. Same with Orban. They ran in a vulnerable democrats with no protections against bad faith actors and then they dismantled democracy. If you don't protect your democrats you end up like Russia or Hungary or turkey or India. Trump wanted to do this too. 

You are taking choice away from all future people just for one instance of a decision. What about the future people who will be forced to live under a monarch with no democracy anymore? So your argument is let the people kill democracy and offer no protections for its continued existence?



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Eagle367 said:

A republic is a form of democracy people. It's just how the democracy is structured. US is both a republic and a democracy.

1. The Roman Republic, especially in its early days, had a very small franchise. It was much more of an oligarchy of land-owners than a democracy. As time passed, more plebeians (but not slaves or women) were enfranchised, but even calling the late Roman Republic a "democracy" is wrong. 

2. Similar can be said of the Republic of Venice which was both an oligarchy and plutocracy. 

3. The early U.S was intentionally non-democratic. That is why there was a party called the "Democratic-Republican Party." The franchise was mostly isolated to those who owned land over a certain value. If the Federalists had their way the U.S would be even less democratic than it became. Instead they wished for there to be mixed government (which has democratic, aristocratic, and monarchic elements) akin to that idealized by classical republicans like Niccolo Machiavelli

From the "classical republicanism" wikipedia. This is the sense where the American right-wing (originating as far back as the Federalists) seems to be using "republican." as opposed to "democracy." 

"Although modern republicanism rejected monarchy (whether hereditary or otherwise autocratic) in favour of rule by the people, classical republicanism treated monarchy as one form of government among others. Classical republicanism was rather aimed against any form of tyranny, whether monarchic, aristocratic, or democratic (tyranny of the majority). The notions of what constituted an ideal republic to classical republicans themselves depended on personal view. However, the most ideal republic featured form of mixed government and was based on the pursuit of civility."

4. North Korea is nominally a "republic" calling itself "Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK)" but it certainly never was a democracy, and especially today the "republic" qualifier seems like a stretch too. 

5. It would be a stretch to call countries like Russia, China, and arguably the current U.S (at least at the national level)  "democracies" given that popular will doesn't really affect public policy much, and oligarchs have much more influence on national politics. All of these are republics. 



Ka-pi96 said:
JackHandy said:

It's not a flawed democracy, it's a flawed republic. But even so, it's the flaws that make it what it is and allow it to change and grow and bend its way along. So I don't think anything needs to change. There has always been periods of social and political upheaval in the US. We're in one right now. Soon, it'll be over and things will carry on as usual.

What do you think the difference is?

democracy (countable and uncountable, plural democracies)

(uncountable) Rule by the people, especially as a form of government; either directly or through elected representatives (representative democracy).

(countable, government) A government under the direct or representative rule of the people of its jurisdiction.

republic (plural republics)

A state where sovereignty rests with the people or their representatives, rather than with a monarch or emperor; a country with no monarchy. The United States is a republic; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a constitutional monarchy.

The US is both a democracy and a republic. You can be a democracy without being a republic, eg. the UK. But every republic is a democracy.

The US is a federal republic. 



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RolStoppable said:
Chrkeller said:

Same is true with liberals and the far left.  

The middle doesn't exist anymore.  

I don't know about that. I don't see the democrats who are in charge pushing far-left policies. The republicans, however, did go for far-right policies when Trump was president, and since then the republican party has not only stayed on this course, but even doubled down on it.

It's not that the middle doesn't exist anymore in the USA, rather it's that the middle has been absorbed by the democratic party. Nowadays the republicans are the party for racists and people who don't mind to associate themselves with racists.

You have to keep in mind, that from the European perspective with its much broader spread of the political spectrum due to much more than two political parties in each country, the democrats in the USA qualify as a party with conservative policies, so they are on the right side of the center. That's why there's no serious threat that the far-left could get major influence in American politics and why your post is misguided at best.

Oh there is a lot of extreme left going on.  Bailing out riotors, trial by the media, etc.  School curriculum is so poor my kids are being home schooled.  As somebody who is born and raised in this country, the middle is absolutely gone.  Both parties are nuts.

The fact you view one party as the problem and the other as being right simply reflects there is no middle anymore.  And the fact that I'm supposedly "misguided" because I don't agree with you also highlights the problem with US politics.  All or nothing, there is no middle.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 27 October 2022

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Eagle367 said:

It's very annoying when people try to both sides things. People think AOC and Bernie are the "far left". And forget many dems are right of centre. It's just the republican have gone so far right they are into fascism. And also, is anarchism as bad as fascism? And does anarchism have any power anywhere? That's the far left. Do actual communists have any power? Do socialists have any power or representation? Socialists aren't even the far left. And what's bad or scary about socialism? Are the "far left" and "far right" equally dangerous? 

The furthest left the US has with any real power I'd a guy who wants to give universal Healthcare and wants a progressive tax system plus affordable education.  That's the middle for Americans if you poll them. So where is the "far left" again? 

I've always been curious about something but I wonder if the US and the rest of the world are using a different definition of left and right wing politics. 

Anarchy is the most extreme version of far right politics while Fascism is ironically near the farthest end of the left, with a dictatorship being I believe the farthest left. And that's not some sort of cultural hot take, it is the truth by definition. 

Right wing politics are about LESS government involvement in one's life and country. Less control, fewer restrictions, less taxes, fewer laws, and more freedom to do whatever they want while getting the least help/interference from the government. extreme right wing politics strive for less government. So, by logical extremism, Anarchy (The idea of a decentralized or nonexistent system in place to control people) is the farthest right you can go because it basically turns the world into a lawless hellscape where anyone can do anything. 

Left-wing politics are about MORE government involvement and control and influence. So, Ironically, fascism is a far left ideal where a political party has a charismatic leader that has a death grip on the laws and regulations of the land. Starting from Center it goes Democracy, socialism, Communism, fascism, then dictatorship. On the right it goes Demoracy, capitalism, then a few steps before Anarchy. 

The irony here is that Trump was absolutely a figurehead of fascism, in a party that unironically hates the left even though it seems nobody actually knows what left vs right actually means. 

Furthermore, what people don't understand is that slightly left of center is the best because it basically gives people most or all of the freedoms they want while only stopping people from doing things that are deemed irresponsible or bad. You know, criminal law, market regulations, etc. The right treats anything 'to the left' as some sort of dystopia where they have no freedoms but the actual purpose of government is to ensure the best outcome for the largest number of people, and 99% of the time that means shit like pumping money into education and social services and healthcare and all that. It means fixing the roads and making the world safe. 

Republicans just hate the idea of paying more in taxes because they don't see the bigger picture. They don't see that if everyone pitches in then everyone benefits, because they hate the idea that someone who they feel didn't earn it also gets helped. To them it's not a collective benefit, it's the gub-mint taking money from their pockets and giving it to someone who doesn't deserve it. 

the idea that 'someone who doesn't deserve it' is Black lives or Mexicans or trans people (as a distinctly republican take) is pretty recent.

Which is why I said for years that Republicans used to be generally decent people who simply had a different take on how budgets should be allocated whereas now they're mostly racist or xenophobic. It's also why they like to use the 'it was the democrats who did slavery and the republicans who saved us' narrative. Because in the past, it absolutely was democrats who were using the extra government control to perpetuate racism and lots of shitty shitty shit. 

But trying to explain all of this to anyone is basically a waste of time because I've learned that, for the most part, people are just smart enough to learn how to justify their attitudes and behaviours while just missing the level of self-awareness needed to re-assess one's actual stance or be willing to reconsider. I try to not act like I'm superior or that I'm 'smarter than you' (With 'you' being the royal you, not you in particular, Eagleman), but every time I look around I'm so astoundingly baffled at how much people are actively avoiding the point or the historical context or the science behind things. I hate that we live in a world where everything is 'us vs them', but I hate even more that we live in a world where WAY too many people are outright villains. I WANT to understand. I want to work together, but it's so hard to do that when so many people are unwilling to even humour the idea that maybe their understanding of the issue was tainted by the fact they didn't 'get' some of the facts or were internally misrepresenting the historical context surrounding it. 

So even when people on 'my' side get things wrong, I feel like I have to correct them. Not to be smug or anything, but to ensure everyone has equal access to the right information. HArd data and proper interpretation of that data guided by ample historical context and nuance. All of that matters, and it's so easy to pinpoint one bad fact or data point to prove even a wrong argument. And like here, I think the core concept of 'left' vs 'right' politics needs to be corrected. 

Unless I am misinterpreting something you said. In which case, do correct me. I still think the context needs to be shared. 



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Runa216 said:

Anarchy is the most extreme version of far right politics while Fascism is ironically near the farthest end of the left, with a dictatorship being I believe the farthest left. And that's not some sort of cultural hot take, it is the truth by definition. 

You have it backwards. Anarchism (the political philosophy) originated on the far-left. Early anarchists like Godwin, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Joseph Déjacque were all leftists and socialists (in Godwin's case proto-socialist.) 

It wasn't until the 1950's when the right-wing liberal Murray Rothbard tried to synthesize certain forms of American individualist anarchism (Benjamin Tucker's "Boston Anarchism") which was still a far-left ideology, with the so-called Austrian School of Economics (right-wing liberalism) that there ever was a so-called "right-wing anarchism" and most actual anarchists don't see "propertarian anarchists" or "anarcho-capitalists" as genuine anarchists. 



Runa216 said:
Eagle367 said:

It's very annoying when people try to both sides things. People think AOC and Bernie are the "far left". And forget many dems are right of centre. It's just the republican have gone so far right they are into fascism. And also, is anarchism as bad as fascism? And does anarchism have any power anywhere? That's the far left. Do actual communists have any power? Do socialists have any power or representation? Socialists aren't even the far left. And what's bad or scary about socialism? Are the "far left" and "far right" equally dangerous? 

The furthest left the US has with any real power I'd a guy who wants to give universal Healthcare and wants a progressive tax system plus affordable education.  That's the middle for Americans if you poll them. So where is the "far left" again? 

I've always been curious about something but I wonder if the US and the rest of the world are using a different definition of left and right wing politics. 

Anarchy is the most extreme version of far right politics while Fascism is ironically near the farthest end of the left, with a dictatorship being I believe the farthest left. And that's not some sort of cultural hot take, it is the truth by definition. 

Right wing politics are about LESS government involvement in one's life and country. Less control, fewer restrictions, less taxes, fewer laws, and more freedom to do whatever they want while getting the least help/interference from the government. extreme right wing politics strive for less government. So, by logical extremism, Anarchy (The idea of a decentralized or nonexistent system in place to control people) is the farthest right you can go because it basically turns the world into a lawless hellscape where anyone can do anything. 

Left-wing politics are about MORE government involvement and control and influence. So, Ironically, fascism is a far left ideal where a political party has a charismatic leader that has a death grip on the laws and regulations of the land. Starting from Center it goes Democracy, socialism, Communism, fascism, then dictatorship. On the right it goes Demoracy, capitalism, then a few steps before Anarchy. 

The irony here is that Trump was absolutely a figurehead of fascism, in a party that unironically hates the left even though it seems nobody actually knows what left vs right actually means. 

Furthermore, what people don't understand is that slightly left of center is the best because it basically gives people most or all of the freedoms they want while only stopping people from doing things that are deemed irresponsible or bad. You know, criminal law, market regulations, etc. The right treats anything 'to the left' as some sort of dystopia where they have no freedoms but the actual purpose of government is to ensure the best outcome for the largest number of people, and 99% of the time that means shit like pumping money into education and social services and healthcare and all that. It means fixing the roads and making the world safe. 

Republicans just hate the idea of paying more in taxes because they don't see the bigger picture. They don't see that if everyone pitches in then everyone benefits, because they hate the idea that someone who they feel didn't earn it also gets helped. To them it's not a collective benefit, it's the gub-mint taking money from their pockets and giving it to someone who doesn't deserve it. 

the idea that 'someone who doesn't deserve it' is Black lives or Mexicans or trans people (as a distinctly republican take) is pretty recent.

Which is why I said for years that Republicans used to be generally decent people who simply had a different take on how budgets should be allocated whereas now they're mostly racist or xenophobic. It's also why they like to use the 'it was the democrats who did slavery and the republicans who saved us' narrative. Because in the past, it absolutely was democrats who were using the extra government control to perpetuate racism and lots of shitty shitty shit. 

But trying to explain all of this to anyone is basically a waste of time because I've learned that, for the most part, people are just smart enough to learn how to justify their attitudes and behaviours while just missing the level of self-awareness needed to re-assess one's actual stance or be willing to reconsider. I try to not act like I'm superior or that I'm 'smarter than you' (With 'you' being the royal you, not you in particular, Eagleman), but every time I look around I'm so astoundingly baffled at how much people are actively avoiding the point or the historical context or the science behind things. I hate that we live in a world where everything is 'us vs them', but I hate even more that we live in a world where WAY too many people are outright villains. I WANT to understand. I want to work together, but it's so hard to do that when so many people are unwilling to even humour the idea that maybe their understanding of the issue was tainted by the fact they didn't 'get' some of the facts or were internally misrepresenting the historical context surrounding it. 

So even when people on 'my' side get things wrong, I feel like I have to correct them. Not to be smug or anything, but to ensure everyone has equal access to the right information. HArd data and proper interpretation of that data guided by ample historical context and nuance. All of that matters, and it's so easy to pinpoint one bad fact or data point to prove even a wrong argument. And like here, I think the core concept of 'left' vs 'right' politics needs to be corrected. 

Unless I am misinterpreting something you said. In which case, do correct me. I still think the context needs to be shared. 

What? What? What? That Iis objectively wrong. Mate you need to look into politics. Fascism is far right and anarchism is far left everywhere in the world. I am not American. Nazis, Italian Fascists, imperial Japan were all far right. 

You are the one confused. Trump is fascist and so it the Republican party and they are far right. That is fascism. Same with Putin, Orban, Modhi. They are far right aka fascists. If you wanna go farther right maybe monarchists. 

"Anarcho-capitalists" aren't anarchists. 

You want actual left to right its anarchist, communists, socialists, socdems, liberal, neoliberal, conservative, neoconservative, right libertarian, "anarcho-capitalists"( basically same as libertarians with fancy name), fascists, monarchists. There are others but that is broadly the universal left to right axis. 

That is why it's laughable that anyone thinks the "far left" exists in the US. Far left people don't believe in nations and state. They don't belive in money. They want the elimination of all hierarchies. They have no power in the US. 

Edit:  learn about anarchy please: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#:~:text=Anarchy%20is%20a%20society%20without,%22an%20absence%20of%20government%22.

It's about eliminating hierarchies. The bolded in your reply is not anarchy. 

Last edited by Eagle367 - on 27 October 2022

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Eagle367 said:
bdbdbd said:

Of course they should. If the monarchist gets elected, it's the people's will. 

Then you don't really like democracy and want it to fall. Let's speedrun the end of democracy. Especially since people lie about their intentions and voters don't know that they are voting for a monarchist. A democracy that doesn't protect itself is a short democracy. 

No, I don't. It's the people who don't like democracy if they vote for abolishing it. If you don't let someone who's intentions are to abolish democracy to run for a position where this someone can do so, then YOU don't like democracy and want it to fall. You can't protect democracy by preventing it from happening. 

Also, monarchy does not contradict democracy. 



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