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Forums - Politics Discussion - The US is ranked as a 'Flawed Democracy', what needs to change?

Eagle367 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Yeah, that's exactly how China and russia run their elections. They don't let those that they consider "treasonous traitors" run. I'm not sure copying those countries should be considered a good thing for democratic nations...

Yes, the monarchist should be allowed to run. I people vote for them then them winning is democratic. A lot of people are stupid and vote against their own interests, but part of democracy is still allowing those people to vote.

You keep ignoring what I am saying and making bad comparisons that you know are disingenuous.  You are taking away democracy from the people if you let a monarchist or fascist run. Your democracy won't survive. The putin example you made, it's exactly how putin got in power in the first place. Same with Orban. They ran in a vulnerable democrats with no protections against bad faith actors and then they dismantled democracy. If you don't protect your democrats you end up like Russia or Hungary or turkey or India. Trump wanted to do this too. 

You are taking choice away from all future people just for one instance of a decision. What about the future people who will be forced to live under a monarch with no democracy anymore? So your argument is let the people kill democracy and offer no protections for its continued existence?

They're not disingenuous comparisons, they're exactly what you're asking for. You're asking for a system where certain people are prevented from even being allowed to run for a political position based on their opinions on certian matters. You're asking for a discriminatory system, one that's inherently un-democratic. Nobody should have the right to determine who can and can't run, that makes them far too powerful and the system far too easy to manipulate.



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Ka-pi96 said:
Eagle367 said:

You keep ignoring what I am saying and making bad comparisons that you know are disingenuous.  You are taking away democracy from the people if you let a monarchist or fascist run. Your democracy won't survive. The putin example you made, it's exactly how putin got in power in the first place. Same with Orban. They ran in a vulnerable democrats with no protections against bad faith actors and then they dismantled democracy. If you don't protect your democrats you end up like Russia or Hungary or turkey or India. Trump wanted to do this too. 

You are taking choice away from all future people just for one instance of a decision. What about the future people who will be forced to live under a monarch with no democracy anymore? So your argument is let the people kill democracy and offer no protections for its continued existence?

They're not disingenuous comparisons, they're exactly what you're asking for. You're asking for a system where certain people are prevented from even being allowed to run for a political position based on their opinions on certian matters. You're asking for a discriminatory system, one that's inherently un-democratic. Nobody should have the right to determine who can and can't run, that makes them far too powerful and the system far too easy to manipulate.

Not on opinions, on actions they will take aka dismantling democracy just like I keep saying putin and orban and erdogan and modhi did or doing. It is a discriminatory system. It discriminates against those wanting to destroy it. The system is not undemocratic, but a specific action is. My point is democracy can't survive without discriminating against bad faith actors. So ultimately the point is, do you want to feel better about purity or do you want a system that will survive for a long time and that is resilient to real world opponents of democracy. Preventing someone from killing others is restricting their freedom but for a free society, you need to stop actions that end their freedom. Your freedom ends where another's begins. And you are taking democracy away from others by trying to get an anti democratic force into power.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:
bdbdbd said:

No, I don't. It's the people who don't like democracy if they vote for abolishing it. If you don't let someone who's intentions are to abolish democracy to run for a position where this someone can do so, then YOU don't like democracy and want it to fall. You can't protect democracy by preventing it from happening. 

Also, monarchy does not contradict democracy. 

Think for a second. And sorry but every system requires active effort to be protected. If you don't stop anti democratic movements, your democracy will die pretty quickly. You don't like democracy if you won't do the bare minimum to protect it. 

Democracy is a system that protects itself. Your argument is, that in order to protect democracy, we'd need to abolish it. If people want to ditch it, then democracy happens.

Last edited by bdbdbd - on 28 October 2022

Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

USA don't have far left

Far left would be something akin to a revolutionary socialist party

I know them because there are a couple of them in my country



USA have one far right country (Republicans)
And a center party (Dems)

There is not left wing party in US, maybe left wing individuals like Bernie



IcaroRibeiro said:

USA don't have far left

Far left would be something akin to a revolutionary socialist party

I know them because there are a couple of them in my country



USA have one far right country (Republicans)
And a center party (Dems)

There is not left wing party in US, maybe left wing individuals like Bernie

Even socialists aren't far left. Communists and anarchists are far left.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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This is what the political spectrum looks like.

Anarcho-communists/syndicalists like Emma Goldman and Noam Chomsky are on the far left. 

The far right includes ultra-nationalists and neo-feudalists.

The left-right spectrum is about less hierarchy vs. more hierarchy. That is what it was based on when it originated in the French Revolution, and it still very much means that today.

Last edited by sc94597 - on 28 October 2022

Eagle367 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

USA don't have far left

Far left would be something akin to a revolutionary socialist party

I know them because there are a couple of them in my country



USA have one far right country (Republicans)
And a center party (Dems)

There is not left wing party in US, maybe left wing individuals like Bernie

Even socialists aren't far left. Communists and anarchists are far left.

Revolutionary socialists are far left



IcaroRibeiro said:
Eagle367 said:

Even socialists aren't far left. Communists and anarchists are far left.

Revolutionary socialists are far left

Depends on how you use that term I guess. But the farthest left socialists I can think of are libertarian socialists and syndacalists, anarchists and communists outflank them on the left.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Personally I see "socialist" as an umbrella term which refers to anyone who wants to resolve the labor problem. 

Communists, cooperativists, communalists, anarchists, syndicalists, guild socialists, etc are all subsets of socialist.

Some socialists wants to solve the labor problem through the so-called liberal-"democratic" state, while others want there to be a social revolution, while others are agnostic of method.



Eagle367 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

They're not disingenuous comparisons, they're exactly what you're asking for. You're asking for a system where certain people are prevented from even being allowed to run for a political position based on their opinions on certian matters. You're asking for a discriminatory system, one that's inherently un-democratic. Nobody should have the right to determine who can and can't run, that makes them far too powerful and the system far too easy to manipulate.

Not on opinions, on actions they will take aka dismantling democracy just like I keep saying putin and orban and erdogan and modhi did or doing. It is a discriminatory system. It discriminates against those wanting to destroy it. The system is not undemocratic, but a specific action is. My point is democracy can't survive without discriminating against bad faith actors. So ultimately the point is, do you want to feel better about purity or do you want a system that will survive for a long time and that is resilient to real world opponents of democracy. Preventing someone from killing others is restricting their freedom but for a free society, you need to stop actions that end their freedom. Your freedom ends where another's begins. And you are taking democracy away from others by trying to get an anti democratic force into power.

How many of those people ran their campaign on the basis of eventually becoming a dictator? And even if they did, if they win then that's literally democracy in action (unless the vote was rigged of course).

Democracy is a shit system, you may not like some of those shitty parts, but they are still undoubtedly a part of democracy.