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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

SecondWar on 25 March 2022
Barozi said:
SecondWar said:

After the NATO conference, I'm getting rather perplexed at the different stances Nato leaders seem to be taking as they are either vague or seemingly in conflict with other Nato leaders. Take Biden for instance - use of a chemical weapon by Russia will see a response in kind.

Excuse me? 'Response in kind'? Correct em if I'm wrong but that seems to suggest Nato will deploy chemical weapons of their own. Horrible idea.

Then you have Zelensky asking for tanks and planes and UK PM Boris Johnson saying Nato should send they with macron refusing saying it will cross Russia's red line. I can't remember who said it (I think John Bolton) but what exactly is the difference between sending Ukraine armaments versus tanks and planes? Did they not manage to construct a coherent message in their summit yesterday? To single out Macron, his statements really seem to be more focused on pandering to Russia.

Other Nato countries are refusing to send other soviet-era defence systems to Ukraine due to being unable to backfil their own defence. This would require the US to step in and replace those systems which is doesn't seem to be prepared to do. This, combined with reports that Nato leaders were expecting to be supporting a smaller Ukrainian resistance at this stage almost implies that the leaders seem to think it'd be better and easier for their sakes if Ukraine folded.

I can get the reservation - an escalation of this conflict could realistically develop into WW£ (or even a Korean of Vietnam War equivalent which would still be very bad). This isn't something I want either. But there is a fine line in supporting Ukraine between within widening the conflict erring and keeping out and letting Ukraine fall and it feels like Nato are erring too much on the latter side

Yes you are wrong. That's certainly not what he implied.

If Russia uses chemical weapons, Nato will respond to that, for example by giving Ukraine tanks, planes etc.
Maybe even going as far as actively taking part in the war.

I agree that's probably the more likely outcome and what was meant but your interpretation isn't the literal meaning of what Biden said.



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SanAndreasX on 25 March 2022
crissindahouse said:
Machiavellian said:

Lets not hope for Putin to be suicidal.  If a person is at the point where they would want to take their own life, they also might be at the point where they want to take as many people with them as they can.  Just think about the person who kills their whole family before themselves.  

I doubt he will do it because I also doubt he will throw all his military at Ukraine but if that would be the case and they would still not win then I guess it would be also the end for him in Russia and I can't imagine Putin just saying "ok, I'm done and someone else can have my job"

When Hitler and Tojo knew that World War II was a losing cause for them, they were determined to cause as much destruction and mayhem as possible on their way out. Hitler actually believed Germany deserved to be destroyed for its failures. The Japanese were conditioning their people to fight down to the last man, woman, and child should the US invade. It was estimated that a land invasion of Japan would cost millions of casualties on both sides and might not end in victory for the Allies. That was what drove the decision to use atomic bombs in hopes of shocking Japan into surrender. 

But of course, neither of them had nuclear weapons. 



Farsala on 25 March 2022
SanAndreasX said:
crissindahouse said:

I doubt he will do it because I also doubt he will throw all his military at Ukraine but if that would be the case and they would still not win then I guess it would be also the end for him in Russia and I can't imagine Putin just saying "ok, I'm done and someone else can have my job"

When Hitler and Tojo knew that World War II was a losing cause for them, they were determined to cause as much destruction and mayhem as possible on their way out. Hitler actually believed Germany deserved to be destroyed for its failures. The Japanese were conditioning their people to fight down to the last man, woman, and child should the US invade. It was estimated that a land invasion of Japan would cost millions of casualties on both sides and might not end in victory for the Allies. That was what drove the decision to use atomic bombs in hopes of shocking Japan into surrender. 

But of course, neither of them had nuclear weapons. 

And this isn't a war where if Russia gives up, that the current government will be completely annihilated and their country completely occupied.

If they give up relatively soon, they can expect to keep the status quo for the most part.



KLAMarine on 25 March 2022

Whoa, what if these generals are getting killed by their own soldiers? Could morale be that bad? I sure as hell wouldn't want to risk my neck for a cause I didn't believe in.



Barozi on 25 March 2022
SecondWar said:
Barozi said:

Yes you are wrong. That's certainly not what he implied.

If Russia uses chemical weapons, Nato will respond to that, for example by giving Ukraine tanks, planes etc.
Maybe even going as far as actively taking part in the war.

I agree that's probably the more likely outcome and what was meant but your interpretation isn't the literal meaning of what Biden said.

Seems like there is a misunderstanding as he's been asked twice about chemical weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FeIaly-yXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veytybY5oLw

I only saw the first video but he says "in kind" in the second. Doesn't change my opinion though as NATO CLEARLY won't be using chemical weapons.



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EpicRandy on 25 March 2022
Ryuu96 said:

Embarrassing.

Got our asses kicked, can't take any major cities, lost over 10,000 troops, lost over a thousand vehicles, lost multiple high ranking officers, lost high tech equipment, can't encircle Kyiv - Phase One Complete. Also, storming Kyiv and other major cities would be absolutely fucking stupid, I know they've been dumb but they can't be that dumb, I think...

Ukraine should take back everything at this stage.

Russia: When life gives you lemons, you make a lemon shit show out of it



EpicRandy on 25 March 2022
Dulfite said:
Ryuu96 said:

Got a source for that? I'm not saying I don't believe you but Russia has been leaking stuff lately from the negotiations which favour them, I don't buy that Ukraine has agreed to partial disarming unless it comes with the caveat that UK, France, USA and Turkey form a security pact with Ukraine.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/erdogan-ukraine-and-russia-nearing-consensus-on-4-of-6-key-issues-to-ending-the-war

so apparently it was fake.



Dulfite on 25 March 2022
EpicRandy said:
Dulfite said:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/erdogan-ukraine-and-russia-nearing-consensus-on-4-of-6-key-issues-to-ending-the-war

so apparently it was fake.

Turkey was lying or the report about what Turkey said was a lie?



TallSilhouette on 25 March 2022



SecondWar on 25 March 2022
Ryuu96 said:

I presume that means taking troops from the Russian-occupied territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I'm wondering if that might encourage Georgia to reclaim control over these areas, especially given Russia's focus being both split and focused elsewhere and their military struggles.

Ryuu96 said:

I really hope the UK courts don't indulge this and through it out at the earliest opportunity. Seems spurious at best.