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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

The first signs of international unease over Ukraine’s air offensive emerged in late March, with the Financial Times reporting US officials had urged Ukraine to halt drone strikes on Russian refineries amid concerns about global oil prices and possible retaliation. Days later, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy confirmed the US reaction to Ukraine’s airstrikes was “not positive,” but stressed Ukraine would not accept limitations on the use of domestically-produced weapons. “We used our drones. Nobody can say to us you can’t,” he commented.

Ukraine’s other key allies have yet to voice similar concerns over drone strikes inside Russia. This apparent split was on display during US Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s April 2 visit to Paris. While Blinken reiterated that the US has “neither supported nor enabled strikes by Ukraine outside its territory,” French Foreign Minister Stéphane Séjourné struck a different note. “The Ukrainian people are acting in self-defense and we consider that Russia is the aggressor,” he commented. “In such circumstances, there is hardly anything else to say. I think you understood me.”

Since Ukraine is restricted from employing Western-provided weapons against targets inside Russia, the production of long-range drones has become a top priority for Kyiv. This has led to a surge in investment and a spike in output. Drones are significantly cheaper to produce in large quantities than long-range missiles and require less infrastructure.

Ukraine’s partners have also backed Kyiv’s focus on drone warfare. In January 2024, the United Kingdom pledged to spend at least $250 million to rapidly procure, produce, and deliver 1000 one-way attack drones to Ukraine. Although precise details regarding Ukraine’s drone stockpile remain undisclosed, the rhetoric of Ukrainian senior officials and the ongoing strikes suggest the current bombing campaign inside Russia is likely to continue gaining momentum.

In the military sphere, the past three months of attacks have confirmed that Russia’s oil facilities are inadequately defended. Russian demand for air defense systems already appears to be growing in response, with indications including delays in delivering promised systems to India. Further Ukrainian drone attacks might compel Moscow to redeploy existing air defense systems to safeguard refineries. This could potentially create opportunities for Ukraine to strike other high-value targets inside Russia and in occupied Ukrainian regions.

Atlantic Council

If Ukraine can mass produce drones and keep bombing these oil refineries, Russia will be forced to make a decision of moving AD, if they move AD away from the frontline or airbases, Ukraine can then swap to attacking those locations, I hope this drone campaign keeps up and Ukraine ignores everyone moaning about it.

Hope the UK's "1000" drones don't have dumb restrictions on them as well for use only inside of Ukraine.



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Russian Navy where?



MOSCOW (Reuters) -Russia considers South Korea's decision to impose sanctions against Russian individuals and entities as an unfriendly move and will respond in due course, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Wednesday.

South Korea has imposed sanctions against two Russian vessels which it says were carrying military cargo to North Korea. Seoul said on Tuesday it had also sanctioned two Russian organisations and two Russian citizens linked to Pyongyang's nuclear and missile programmes.

Russia Says New South Korean Sanctions Are 'Unfriendly', Will Respond

Japan to Ban Exports of 164 Goods to Russia | Nippon.com



Aides to President Joe Biden have been privately working behind the scenes to ensure House Speaker Mike Johnson can put a $60 billion aid package for Ukraine up for a vote — and survive it politically.

The White House has maintained contact with Johnson’s office about Ukraine aid throughout Congress’s two-week recess, according to two administration officials. And while the president has publicly pressured House Republicans to pass the Ukraine aid package, he and his team have held off on aggressively attacking the speaker over the drawn-out process for getting it passed. Instead, they’ve sought to give Johnson breathing room as he leads a fractious GOP caucus with an ever-shrinking majority.

For all their frustration with the painstakingly slow pace in the House, administration officials are privately hopeful their approach could result in Congress starting to move on an aid package later this month.

Biden's team has been quietly backchanneling with Mike Johnson to push for Ukraine aid - POLITICO

Lol...The Senate bill would have passed if Johnson grew some balls and put it to a floor vote, there is no pleasing the lunatics in House like MTG and they'll vote against any bill put forward so I don't really see how Biden's aides can help Johnson to avoid that, especially when that banshee hears that Biden has been helping Johnson.

Did we waste months on a Senate bill for nothing?

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While economic aid can be delivered in the form of a loan, military aid is more complex. But there are other reasons Democrats are sour on the idea: A sizable loan would depress Ukraine’s credit rating as it fights a war and, eventually, tries to rebuild. There are also concerns about the new precedent it would set for providing foreign aid.

Ian Bremmer, the president of the Eurasia Group, who is in frequent touch with members of the administration, said the notion of making Ukraine repay the aid money as a loan was “a little silly and simplistic,” especially given that the country will have to spend billions rebuilding its own infrastructure when the war is over. Beyond that, he said, Congress can’t redirect the $300 billion in seized Russian assets because most of that money is being held in Europe, not the U.S.

“The Europeans are not comfortable seizing these assets at all. They think it sets a horrible precedent, that it will undermine the Euro and that it could face legal jeopardy,” Bremmer said. “And Europe is doing more for Ukraine currently than the United States is, so they just don’t feel the need to go there.”

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Well, lets wait patiently for another few weeks for little Johnson to grow a pair while Ukrainians die.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 05 April 2024



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Ryuu96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Well, they have the launchers... but how many missiles do they each have?

Ukraine doesn't need that many more launchers, but they need the patriot missiles that are launched with them, and those might be not ordered in such great numbers.

Also, not all the launchers are he same. MIM 104 (the military designation of the Patriot systems) A-D (base model, PAC-1) are all the same, but E (PAC-2), F (2 variants, PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE; the latter is also known as MEADS) and SkyCeptor (PAAC-4) all have sizes that differ from each other and from the older models, making their launchers non-compatible with the other models. The models before PAC-3 are all outdated and mostly retired by now, but even with just the current MIM-104 F and SkyCeptor systems we'll have 3 different missiles which need different canister launchers. Worse, SkyCeptor's IR tracking also needs different ground tracking equipment.

The US and Japan are the only producers of Patriot missiles, and they are currently in very high demand, with deliveries taking up to 15 months right now. As a result, more Patriot systems doesn't necessarily result in Ukraine having better air defense capabilities, as there are simply not enough missiles to feed them all.

Yeah, launchers are no issue, America alone has hundreds but obviously they need the ammunition, having said that, I don't really think they're going to need thousands of missiles, hundreds maybe? Patriots have to be layered with other air defence systems but the fact is that Patriot is the only AD that Ukraine has capable of intercepting Kinzhal IIRC.

All these countries with Patriots will obviously have ammo with them too and there are currently 17 countries fielding Patriot, with 2 more in the future. They obviously need missiles but the tweets aren't saying about finding missiles but the systems themselves, of which there's dozens out there, it's just about convincing countries to give them up.

There's a number of countries which should give an extra one up because they aren't in danger from anyone, America could easily give another one up but the aid package is being blocked by Moscow Johnson so they can't give barely anything away lately, someone may have to suck it up and acquire from America on behalf of Ukraine or Biden should figure out a damn away around Johnson.

When the F16s arrive in Ukraine, either they're going to need to arrive with a Patriot or Ukraine is doing to have to make the difficult decision of pulling back a Patriot to exclusively protect an airfield and some aircraft over defending cities and they already have to make that decision of using Patriot as an offensive weapon or defensive weapon because they don't have enough.

They really cant spare the Patriot battries in order to protect the F-16s as ujraine has only 3 batteries and 2 are protecting cities that are very far from the front (kyiv and somewhere else i think). However, the ukranians can always keep the F-16s in the rear and only bring them somewhat close briefly. And thats fine, because the F-16 has a very long range, I think I read over a 100 km for its missles. So they should keep the planes on the move and far away the front. 



Ryuu96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Well, they have the launchers... but how many missiles do they each have?

Ukraine doesn't need that many more launchers, but they need the patriot missiles that are launched with them, and those might be not ordered in such great numbers.

Also, not all the launchers are he same. MIM 104 (the military designation of the Patriot systems) A-D (base model, PAC-1) are all the same, but E (PAC-2), F (2 variants, PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE; the latter is also known as MEADS) and SkyCeptor (PAAC-4) all have sizes that differ from each other and from the older models, making their launchers non-compatible with the other models. The models before PAC-3 are all outdated and mostly retired by now, but even with just the current MIM-104 F and SkyCeptor systems we'll have 3 different missiles which need different canister launchers. Worse, SkyCeptor's IR tracking also needs different ground tracking equipment.

The US and Japan are the only producers of Patriot missiles, and they are currently in very high demand, with deliveries taking up to 15 months right now. As a result, more Patriot systems doesn't necessarily result in Ukraine having better air defense capabilities, as there are simply not enough missiles to feed them all.

Yeah, launchers are no issue, America alone has hundreds but obviously they need the ammunition, having said that, I don't really think they're going to need thousands of missiles, hundreds maybe? Patriots have to be layered with other air defence systems but the fact is that Patriot is the only AD that Ukraine has capable of intercepting Kinzhal IIRC.

All these countries with Patriots will obviously have ammo with them too and there are currently 17 countries fielding Patriot, with 2 more in the future. They obviously need missiles but the tweets aren't saying about finding missiles but the systems themselves, of which there's dozens out there, it's just about convincing countries to give them up.

There's a number of countries which should give an extra one up because they aren't in danger from anyone, America could easily give another one up but the aid package is being blocked by Moscow Johnson so they can't give barely anything away lately, someone may have to suck it up and acquire from America on behalf of Ukraine or Biden should figure out a damn away around Johnson.

When the F16s arrive in Ukraine, either they're going to need to arrive with a Patriot or Ukraine is doing to have to make the difficult decision of pulling back a Patriot to exclusively protect an airfield and some aircraft over defending cities and they already have to make that decision of using Patriot as an offensive weapon or defensive weapon because they don't have enough.

bolded: Afaik Iris-T can also do that - and apparently here at least Germany is sending more and more systems and rockets tu Ukraine, countering the lack of Patriots somewhat. Germany has sent 3 IRIS-T air defense systems out of 12 promised total (one every 6 months since October 2022, the next one being due this month btw, plus 2 out of 24 rocket artilley systems based on IRIS-T which uses the same guidance hardware, so they could be easily reconverted from SLS into SLM variants), so there would be no need to sacrify any Patriot systems to the Airfield used by the F-16.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Ryuu96 said:

Yeah, launchers are no issue, America alone has hundreds but obviously they need the ammunition, having said that, I don't really think they're going to need thousands of missiles, hundreds maybe? Patriots have to be layered with other air defence systems but the fact is that Patriot is the only AD that Ukraine has capable of intercepting Kinzhal IIRC.

All these countries with Patriots will obviously have ammo with them too and there are currently 17 countries fielding Patriot, with 2 more in the future. They obviously need missiles but the tweets aren't saying about finding missiles but the systems themselves, of which there's dozens out there, it's just about convincing countries to give them up.

There's a number of countries which should give an extra one up because they aren't in danger from anyone, America could easily give another one up but the aid package is being blocked by Moscow Johnson so they can't give barely anything away lately, someone may have to suck it up and acquire from America on behalf of Ukraine or Biden should figure out a damn away around Johnson.

When the F16s arrive in Ukraine, either they're going to need to arrive with a Patriot or Ukraine is doing to have to make the difficult decision of pulling back a Patriot to exclusively protect an airfield and some aircraft over defending cities and they already have to make that decision of using Patriot as an offensive weapon or defensive weapon because they don't have enough.

bolded: Afaik Iris-T can also do that - and apparently here at least Germany is sending more and more systems and rockets tu Ukraine, countering the lack of Patriots somewhat. Germany has sent 3 IRIS-T air defense systems out of 12 promised total (one every 6 months since October 2022, the next one being due this month btw, plus 2 out of 24 rocket artilley systems based on IRIS-T which uses the same guidance hardware, so they could be easily reconverted from SLS into SLM variants), so there would be no need to sacrify any Patriot systems to the Airfield used by the F-16.

Can it? I may have missed it but thus far I've only seen Patriot taking down Kinzhals, it was made a big deal of because it was the first time a Kinzhal was intercepted. In recent attacks, you can see how Kinzhals are basically not intercepted at all lately. There are other missiles with a lot of 0s too, not sure if those are also a lack of ammo or if they simply aren't capable of being intercepted.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 05 April 2024

But last month the Financial Times reported the Biden Administration had urged Ukraine to halt its campaign targeting Russian refineries and warned that "the drone strikes risk driving up global oil prices and provoking retaliation."

U.S. Ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith said Tuesday that "in terms of actually going after targets inside Russia, that is something that the United States is not particularly supportive of." State Department spokesman Matthew Miller declined last week "to speak to specific conversations" regarding the Russian refineries. But he said "it has always been our position since the outset of this war that we do not encourage or support Ukraine taking strikes outside its own territory."

So Ukraine has to suffer attacks on its territory, but it can't hit back at its aggressor? Striking Russian air bases and drone facilities have obvious military value, and Russia's refineries obviously help to fuel and finance the Kremlin's war machine. Between Feb. 24, 2022, and January 2024, Russia has damaged or destroyed some $9 billion in Ukrainian energy infrastructure, according to the Kyiv School of Economics.

Ukraine's strikes have disrupted between 10% and 14% of Russia's refinery capacity. British defense intelligence notes that "depending on the extent of the damage, major repairs could take considerable time and expense." Russia will also have to deploy air defenses to protect its refineries.

Ukraine's goal with the strikes is to complicate Russia's efforts to fuel its troops. S&P Global Commodity Insights estimates that in May 2022 Russia's military campaign was consuming nearly 6% of domestic diesel output.

Sanctions have created spare refining capacity in Belarus, but Russia may have to reconfigure the routes it uses to get fuel to the front. Vladimir Putin will prioritize filling tanks over Russians' cars, and the refinery attacks will likely cause local fuel disruptions that bring the war home to Russians.

Ukraine's strikes on Russia won't decide the war's outcome, but they are important as Ukraine's dwindling ammo and air defenses limit other options. While Mr. Putin continues to escalate, the White House frets about the Russian response to any perceived escalation. The bigger geopolitical risk is what will happen if Ukraine falls to Russian aggression. If the U.S. won't offer more arms, the least it can do is get out of Ukraine's way.

Biden Tells Ukraine Not to Hit Russia - WSJ

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 06 April 2024

While the USA pisses its pants.