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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

I remember in college, back somewhere 2009-2013, I worked with a Russian student. We had a lot of foreign students, so it was common for people to explain why they were at the school, their backgrounds, etc. I encountered some fascinating stories in my time there, especially by a Croatian, but none were as fascinating as this Russian. His father apparently was on the run because he spoke out against Putin back in Russia. His son didn't even know where he was, or at least that's what he told me. I used to think it was just fascinating, but in retrospect I wonder how many Russians live in that kind of fear. I mean, the son was talking about Putin in such fear, and our school was in Missouri of all places, which is over 8,000 KM away.



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Ryuu96 said:
EpicRandy said:

Bullshits, if Russia were truly concerned they would have started negotiation before invading, they didn't. They don't fear NATO at their door, they fear Europeans life style at there door. They fear that the 11 millions Russian with close ties to Ukrainians start realizing how much crappier it is in Russia. That's why there can't be good faith negotiation from Russia, that's why they didn't try to resolve the issue peacefully, they only want Ukraine to be more miserable than Russia so they can keep their propaganda working in the long run.

Exactly this, Putin doesn't give a damn about NATO, he knows full well that NATO would never attack first, they won't even defend Ukraine militarily because NATO knows that would result in nuclear warfare, Putin isn't scared of NATO, he is scared of European lifestyles, democracy and freedom, he wants to keep that as far away from his borders as possible.

Oh he cares about nato. Nato in ukraine would mean usa at his door. Imagine a future war between usa/russia, that would automatically make ukraine involved and fight against russia.  What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of ukraine?  The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. Has there been some kind of revolt? 



forest-spirit said:

I'm not a fan of the idea that the Ukranians should just stop resisting and accept Putin's terms in order to avoid further bloodshed, as it puts the blame of loss of life and overall destruction on Ukraine when it should be on Russia. It was Russia that choose war, not Ukraine. Using this kind of logic, no nation should ever choose to defend against a more powerful foe as it most certainly would lead to a lot of death and destruction.


But let's say that Ukraine does accept Putin's terms. Yes, it would mean that the current war comes to an end. But then what? The Ukrainians would lose their sovereignty and end up in Russia's sphere of influence. Becoming a member of Nato or the European Union would be impossible. Heck, any kind of approach towards the west would be difficult for Ukraine, and if Russia feels like Ukraine is behaving in a way that doesn't favour them they could simply choose to invade again.
Ukraine surrendering will have longterm consequences for the country and its people. That's something you have to keep in mind when you ask yourself why they're fighting so hard.

A no nato guarantee and being neutral would have been a start, and possibly prevented an invasion



CaptainExplosion said:
KratosLives said:

Oh he cares about nato. Nato in ukraine would mean usa at his door. Imagine a future war between usa/russia, that would automatically make ukraine involved and fight against russia.  What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of ukraine?  The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. Has there been some kind of revolt? 

We wouldn't have strong relations with Russia and wouldn't let Russia set foot in Canada. It's sickening that you would even think we'd do such stupid things.

My point being, usa wouldn't let russia set foot, just as russia wouldn't let any presense of nato set foot anywhere near russia. They all have their own security concerns and believe they are in the right. And terrible shit has been done from all sides in the past. You can't say one is better than the other.



Cobretti2 said:
KratosLives said:

So russians in russia last year weren't happy or have the ability to live a great life there? Did I miss something?

All I want is someone to explain to me how agreeing to putin's terms, is worse than what is happening right now and what will keep happening for God knows how long. Is there anything greater than the life of a human?  Once people start dying and cities are ruined, then it's too late, you've failed to protect what's most important. 

 

And no i'm not a russian sympathiser or paid by putin as some chap suggested. I'm an australian living in australia. All I care about are the people caught up and getting hurt.  

They are happy because that is all they know. A country who had freedom and was taken over by the USSR or has tasted freedom post USSR knows exactly how much better life can be.

The reason it is better because a life that has no freedom isn't a life at all. You have to live it to experience it and understand it.

I noted a few people saying you are from Australia.  Well I live here now too. I come here because of the USSR oppression. Australia is a fucking holiday in comparison. The amount of people here that whinge about the smallest shit is laughable. I mean you know the country is good when you can go on a life time of dole payments. People complain they don't have enough money on the dole yet they don't want to work for it to get more money.  In other countries welfare does not last forever. You don't work you die/fight on the street.

 

Yes we are doing ok in australia, but it's not all perfect . There are problems here that russians don't have, and same for them.

I've met russians who have come here on holidays for certain major events, over the last 15 years, and no one was complaining about life there. But you can go to any country and find bad stuff going on there.



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KratosLives said:
Ryuu96 said:

Exactly this, Putin doesn't give a damn about NATO, he knows full well that NATO would never attack first, they won't even defend Ukraine militarily because NATO knows that would result in nuclear warfare, Putin isn't scared of NATO, he is scared of European lifestyles, democracy and freedom, he wants to keep that as far away from his borders as possible.

Oh he cares about nato. Nato in ukraine would mean usa at his door. Imagine a future war between usa/russia, that would automatically make ukraine involved and fight against russia.  What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of ukraine?  The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. Has there been some kind of revolt? 

What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? Canada with strong relation to Russia would mean Russia would be very different than that it is today. Canada have very strong relation with many country and you don't see USA going nuts at any of them. Soviet Union had a foot in Cuba and all U.S. did was a failed operation using native Cuban, they never invaded with their troops, never shelled Cuban cities, never shelled civil house, never shelled hospital and maternity ward. 

What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of Ukraine?  Because this very culture is one that overthrown high level of governement corruption in 2014. Russia is literally the most corrupt country in the world with the highest inequality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMz5kgb7V4 if ever this very culture takes root in Russia he is literally done for.

The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. They clearly don't. To the point where Russian relatives to Ukrainians don't even believe them when they tell literally what's happening right now. Why do you think Russia shutdown there last independent media?

Has there been some kind of revolt? Recent action taken by Putin clearly point that he is afraid of one. Thousands of illegal arrest of peaceful protester. New law that forbid anyone referring to the current situation in Ukraine as a war, punishable with up 15 years in jail. 



Dulfite said:

I remember in college, back somewhere 2009-2013, I worked with a Russian student. We had a lot of foreign students, so it was common for people to explain why they were at the school, their backgrounds, etc. I encountered some fascinating stories in my time there, especially by a Croatian, but none were as fascinating as this Russian. His father apparently was on the run because he spoke out against Putin back in Russia. His son didn't even know where he was, or at least that's what he told me. I used to think it was just fascinating, but in retrospect I wonder how many Russians live in that kind of fear. I mean, the son was talking about Putin in such fear, and our school was in Missouri of all places, which is over 8,000 KM away.

I remember seeing what the Russians did to Alexander Litvinenko while he was living in Britain, without repercussions. That was absolutely ghastly. If that's how Russia treats people they view as traitors, I definitely don't blame them for being afraid of retaliation.



CaptainExplosion said:

I'm just so sick of Russia constantly getting away with blatant terrorism these past few years, but like it or not, the only way to stop it all may be to kill Putin.

This won't resolve anything the next guy would only take it's place and might be worse. The only way to stop it is to educate Russian on what's truly happening in Ukraine. Provide an access to internet which cannot be controlled by the government could be a great first step.



Ryuu96 said:
KratosLives said:

A no nato guarantee and being neutral would have been a start, and possibly prevented an invasion

No, it wouldn't have.

Ukraine was literally nowhere near joining NATO.

Crazy enough, a country has the right to choose whether they join NATO or not, it isn't up to Russia, they don't rule the world.

Not everything is as black and white. The very lands we are living on and communicating to each other has been taken over and conquered unjustly in the past. Now ofcourse i'm not suggesting it's fine , especially today, that anyone take over anyone's land. We live in modern times and have learned the errors of the past. 

Regarding nato and what putin was asking for you, it's not a simple matter of saying it's not their right to onterfere or care what ukraine does. You need to understand the history of russia/ukraine/soviet, nate , history of past political events , actions of their past events, the right to concerns etc



CaptainExplosion said:
EpicRandy said:

This won't resolve anything the next guy would only take it's place and might be worse. The only way to stop it is to educate Russian on what's truly happening in Ukraine. Provide an access to internet which cannot be controlled by the government could be a great first step.

Then what about punishing Putin and his followers? They've gone a whole decade without even a slap on the wrist for years of murder, terrorism and colluding with Trump, and we're just supposed to accept that they won't be punished? What kind of bullshit world are we living in?

Then what about punishing Putin and his followers? that's exactly what the current sanction is aiming to achieve.

They've gone a whole decade without even a slap on the wrist for years of murder, terrorism and colluding with Trump, and we're just supposed to accept that they won't be punished? Punishments must comes from Russian themselves to be more effective Mussolini can attest to that. 

What kind of bullshit world are we living in? A world where self-centeredness too often rewards those who commit it, I'm afraid.