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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Cobretti2 said:

Anyone surprised Greece isn't giving any Leopard 2 tanks?

This boils down to the differences Greece has with Turkey.

If Erdogan gets voted out and his successor is less belligerent towards Greece or the west in general, I expect Greece to start sending more equipment, too.



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Ryuu96 said:

Annoying and cowardly, I'm sure it doesn't help that the prick Erdogan is threatening them every week but still, they're in NATO.

They're both in Nato, as such this cancels itself out. If Turkey were to leave the alliance, then this would shift into Greece's favor and they could send more equipment (and probably would do so eagerly to save some bucks). As such, the best hope is that Erdogan gets voted out this spring and his successor starts more constructive talks with Greece instead of constantly sending them some threats.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Ryuu96 said:

Annoying and cowardly, I'm sure it doesn't help that the prick Erdogan is threatening them every week but still, they're in NATO.

They're both in Nato, as such this cancels itself out. If Turkey were to leave the alliance, then this would shift into Greece's favor and they could send more equipment (and probably would do so eagerly to save some bucks). As such, the best hope is that Erdogan gets voted out this spring and his successor starts more constructive talks with Greece instead of constantly sending them some threats.

Hmm, is that actually how it would work? Even if Turkey is the aggressor and attacks Greece, they (NATO) wouldn't help Greece because Turkey is also in NATO? That sounds a bit mad, Lol. Still, I don't think Turkey has any serious intention of attacking Greece and it's just Erdogan being a dick as per usual and hamming things up for the elections, once they're over I expect him to shut up.

Still, I do hope he is voted out as long as the successor maintains the strong Ukraine support (keeping the strait closed, supplying Ukraine with weapons) but less of the being a dick to your allies, Erdogan is the master of playing both sides off against each other and it is frustrating, even if he screws over Putin from time to time, he's also threatening Greece nonstop and being a dick to Sweden.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 28 February 2023

Ryuu96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

They're both in Nato, as such this cancels itself out. If Turkey were to leave the alliance, then this would shift into Greece's favor and they could send more equipment (and probably would do so eagerly to save some bucks). As such, the best hope is that Erdogan gets voted out this spring and his successor starts more constructive talks with Greece instead of constantly sending them some threats.

Hmm, is that actually how it would work? Even if Turkey is the aggressor and attacks Greece, they (NATO) wouldn't help Greece because Turkey is also in NATO? That sounds a bit mad, Lol. Still, I don't think Turkey has any serious intention of attacking Greece and it's just Erdogan being a dick as per usual and hamming things up for the elections, once they're over I expect him to shut up.

It's never been tested (and hopefully never is) as to what happens if one Nato member attacks another. I'm theory Article 5 would apply to the nation under attack, but the aggressor could jam up the political machine (and likely would in the lead up to the attack). Presumably though the aggressor would be turfed out of Nato



SecondWar said:
Ryuu96 said:

Hmm, is that actually how it would work? Even if Turkey is the aggressor and attacks Greece, they (NATO) wouldn't help Greece because Turkey is also in NATO? That sounds a bit mad, Lol. Still, I don't think Turkey has any serious intention of attacking Greece and it's just Erdogan being a dick as per usual and hamming things up for the elections, once they're over I expect him to shut up.

It's never been tested (and hopefully never is) as to what happens if one Nato member attacks another. I'm theory Article 5 would apply to the nation under attack, but the aggressor could jam up the political machine (and likely would in the lead up to the attack). Presumably though the aggressor would be turfed out of Nato

I read up a bit about Article 5, and while a very quick look at the Wikipedia article didn't reveal much, I noticed there's Article 8 that handles this precise issue. Basically it seems like Greece would have the support of the US and France.



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Ryuu96 said:

I could unfortunately see a scenario where Putin could retreat and still survive, I've lost all confidence that anyone will ever stand up to Putin, I don't know what happened to Russia but it seems like every single person is afraid of him. There is hardly any criticism directed towards him, it is carefully and specifically always directed towards Shoigu or Gerasimov, aside from Girkin who nobody takes seriously, I don't see anyone criticising Putin.

Russians seem contempt with being sent to their deaths with awful equipment and treated like shit with next to zero protests and the ones that do happen are ridiculously small for the population, the FSB will always have Putin's back and Prigozhin I don't see as a threat to Putin as the Russian MoD hates him, I see him as the most likely to meet a window by the end of this and someone else thrown under the bus to take the blame.

The Oligarchs are useless as well.

I'd say that the major thing in the near future which Ukraine has to watch out for is the US elections, if a twat like Trump or DeSantis wins then that will hurt Ukraine's support significantly. So ideally, Ukraine needs to make some major gains before then but I do have confidence that Biden will win another term.

I have had a hard time imagining any realistic scenario where Putin will have to take responsibility. The way this whole conflict has played out, the solution to it in the best case scenario amounts to Russia being beaten on the battlefield, fully pushed out of Ukraine, Ukraine being embraced as a NATO member in quick fashion, all Russians within the borders of Russia going free of any international punishment aside from (mostly) toothless sanctions against them. And this has to be good enough.

People need to remember that the vast majority of crimes of Nazi Germany went unpunished too. Only a few people were prosecuted in the aftermaths while almost everyone else was allowed to carry on with their lives. This isn't proper justice, but real politics and ideals are two very different things, that's just how it is.

So yeah, what the war is about is bringing freedom and safety back to Ukraine while the other side of the equation - the situation in Russia - can be barely influenced nor touched.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

We already have a year of war behind us and I think it will last at least twice as long. Russia must suffer a military and economic defeat for peace talks to take place. It's good that the topic is constantly updated. Great job Ryu!



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/02/russia-run-out-of-money-oleg-deripaska

Whisper it. It may be speculation or an exaggeration but maybe, just maybe...



Meanwhile Bakhmut is not looking good, I hope Ukraine knows what they're doing there because it looks like an encirclement could happen and American officials have been telling them to abandon it for a while now, stating it has little tactical significance so a few are confused why Ukraine is so insistent on holding it but Ukraine knows more than us so I just hope they have a good reason.

James is being sent to Bakhmut.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 02 March 2023

Ryuu96 said:

Meanwhile Bakhmut is not looking good, I hope Ukraine knows what they're doing there because it looks like an encirclement could happen and American officials have been telling them to abandon it for a while now, stating it has little tactical significance so a few are confused why Ukraine is so insistent on holding it but Ukraine knows more than us so I just hope they have a good reason.

Yeah this is an odd situation, I expected Ukraine retreat a long while ago. Maybe it's just too good of an opportiny to wear out Russian army and resources? A more unpleasant possibility could be Ukraine is desperately holding on because Russia would advance to burn down other cities as well.

But did US officials tell them abandon Bakhmut or advice not to send too much resources there? I'd agree they shouldn't defend Bakhmut at the expense of possible large counter-offensive.

Anyway, let's hope and trust Ukraine knows what it's doing.