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Forums - Sony Discussion - [DF] + [Gamer Nexus] Colab testing Old vs New PS5 model

Azzanation said:
Captain_Yuri said:

It was always going to be a nothing burger. Some people spread FUD over nothing because of a slight redesign of the heatsink. At the end of the day, one should always stop and think of the simple fact that companies generally don't kneecap their own hardware. These things always goes through lots of testing. Sure in the past, we have had issues with RROD and etc but those days are long gone.

Austin Evans is the real facepalm person out of all of this. Lets point a thermal camera and come to a nonsense conclusion instead of doing the work like GN and DF does to find what's actually going on.

For me, this comes as good news that the new model is cooler in some ways. However reducing a Heat sink by 300g is not a slight redesign as you claim. Its a massive chunk of the console taken out and the new part has been redesigned to make up the difference.

Also plenty of companies kneecap themselves if it comes to increasing their profit margins. Many new models in most electronics get redesigns over the years which can either be by removing features from the original design or by taking parts out to reduce build costs etc. My KS8000 (2016) Samsung TV has 2x builtin Subwoofers which the later NU8000 (2018) does not. They were replaced by 1x front speaker instead. 

NU8000 (2018)

KS8000 (2016)

The issue isn't Austin Evans, its fanboys from both sides of the fence that took a none deep dive video and blew it up to something its not. The guy wanted to check what was the 300g difference was. He is allowed to have his opinion, he never claimed it as a fact it runs hotter without actually doing a deep dive on it. When people don't want to hear what they want to hear they will paint them as either a fanboy or to blame. When DF did videos comparing the XB1X to the PS4 Pro many fanboys claimed DF Xbox shills. But now DF is a source for them to use because they claim something they simply want to hear. 

Anyone who calls DF shills aren't worth listening to. DF is about as legit and unbiased as it gets no matter what they're covering. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PS3 was delayed so SNY could add a GPU instead of having just the Cell do everything. That's not exactly cutting back or cutting corners yet didn't exactly help sales with the launch price and headstart it gave to the MS XB 360. Mind you without a GPU the launch could have been a total disaster. So, to save money and time or not? Perhaps spend more now and maybe save some later if possible? 

And lastly, lol, PS5 went from 3.9kg down to 3.6kg. A 'massive' reduction... that's caused not enough of a heat difference to worry about whatsoever in terms of gaming, yet, will certainly lead to much less fuel being burned while transporting tens of millions of units worldwide. All on top of the eco friendly packaging. 

Why doesn't MS reduce the weight of their fancy boxed 4.6kg XBSX fuel chugger?

XBSX is ruining the environment?.. 

Team "Green“ ?.. 

MS/XB are climate deniers!

Nobody get all worked up now. That's just my opinion on what little I've taken into account and concluded based on it...



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Azzanation said:
Captain_Yuri said:

It was always going to be a nothing burger. Some people spread FUD over nothing because of a slight redesign of the heatsink. At the end of the day, one should always stop and think of the simple fact that companies generally don't kneecap their own hardware. These things always goes through lots of testing. Sure in the past, we have had issues with RROD and etc but those days are long gone.

Austin Evans is the real facepalm person out of all of this. Lets point a thermal camera and come to a nonsense conclusion instead of doing the work like GN and DF does to find what's actually going on.

For me, this comes as good news that the new model is cooler in some ways. However reducing a Heat sink by 300g is not a slight redesign as you claim. Its a massive chunk of the console taken out and the new part has been redesigned to make up the difference.

Also plenty of companies kneecap themselves if it comes to increasing their profit margins. Many new models in most electronics get redesigns over the years which can either be by removing features from the original design or by taking parts out to reduce build costs etc. My KS8000 (2016) Samsung TV has 2x builtin Subwoofers which the later NU8000 (2018) does not. They were replaced by 1x front speaker instead. 

NU8000 (2018)

KS8000 (2016)

The issue isn't Austin Evans, its fanboys from both sides of the fence that took a none deep dive video and blew it up to something its not. The guy wanted to check what was the 300g difference. He is allowed to have his opinion, he never claimed it as a fact it runs hotter without actually doing a deep dive on it. When people don't want to hear what they want to hear they will paint them as either a fanboy or to blame. When DF did videos comparing the XB1X to the PS4 Pro many fanboys claimed DF Xbox shills. But now DF is a source for them to use because they claim something they simply want to hear. 

Reducing weight doesn't matter much in this case as it was clearly over engineered to begin with proven by the tests.

Companies do adjust things yes but that's not kneecaping their product as kneecaping is much worse. Making slight adjustments to revisions are always bound to happen but in your case, kneecaping would be if the 2018 Samsung TV were to have a noticeably worse TV in image quality and such. Speakers to matter but they aren't the main reason anyone buys a TV. If Samsung were to reduce the image quality and HDR features and such of the 2018 model vs 2016 model, now that would be kneecaping.

Austin Evans is allowed to have an opinion but opinions can also have consequences. His "deep dive" wasn't much of a deep dive. All he did was point the Thermal camera to see that the new PS5 was exhausting the heat a few degrees more. Then he took it apart and measured the weight difference and looked at them side by side. He did a few more tests but none of which is proper testing to determine the cooling performance of the heat sink. GNs video is what you would call a Deep Dive. Not to mention, all throughout Austin Evans video, he kept trying to make the situation sound worse than it is which made the situation for him even worse, especially with his clickbaity title. Yes, the fanboys are nonsense and people that are Doxxing him should be banned from the internet if not put to jail but that doesn't mean Austin Evans opinion or testing was any good either.

Last edited by Captain_Yuri - on 17 September 2021

             

                               Anime: Haruhi                                                                                                           Nsfw Anime Thread                                     

EricHiggin said:

Anyone who calls DF shills aren't worth listening to. DF is about as legit and unbiased as it gets no matter what they're covering. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PS3 was delayed so SNY could add a GPU instead of having just the Cell do everything. That's not exactly cutting back or cutting corners yet didn't exactly help sales with the launch price and headstart it gave to the MS XB 360. Mind you without a GPU the launch could have been a total disaster. So, to save money and time or not? Perhaps spend more now and maybe save some later if possible? 

And lastly, lol, PS5 went from 3.9kg down to 3.6kg. A 'massive' reduction... that's caused not enough of a heat difference to worry about whatsoever in terms of gaming, yet, will certainly lead to much less fuel being burned while transporting tens of millions of units worldwide. All on top of the eco friendly packaging. 

Why doesn't MS reduce the weight of their fancy boxed 4.6kg XBSX fuel chugger?

XBSX is ruining the environment?.. 

Team "Green“ ?.. 

MS/XB are climate deniers!

Nobody get all worked up now. That's just my opinion on what little I've taken into account and concluded based on it...

You are entitled to your opinion, you wont see me bitching about it on the internet crying about what you think.

Captain_Yuri said:
Azzanation said:

For me, this comes as good news that the new model is cooler in some ways. However reducing a Heat sink by 300g is not a slight redesign as you claim. Its a massive chunk of the console taken out and the new part has been redesigned to make up the difference.

Also plenty of companies kneecap themselves if it comes to increasing their profit margins. Many new models in most electronics get redesigns over the years which can either be by removing features from the original design or by taking parts out to reduce build costs etc. My KS8000 (2016) Samsung TV has 2x builtin Subwoofers which the later NU8000 (2018) does not. They were replaced by 1x front speaker instead. 

NU8000 (2018)

KS8000 (2016)

The issue isn't Austin Evans, its fanboys from both sides of the fence that took a none deep dive video and blew it up to something its not. The guy wanted to check what was the 300g difference. He is allowed to have his opinion, he never claimed it as a fact it runs hotter without actually doing a deep dive on it. When people don't want to hear what they want to hear they will paint them as either a fanboy or to blame. When DF did videos comparing the XB1X to the PS4 Pro many fanboys claimed DF Xbox shills. But now DF is a source for them to use because they claim something they simply want to hear. 

Reducing weight doesn't matter much in this case as it was clearly over engineered to begin with proven by the tests.

Companies do adjust things yes but that's not kneecaping their product as kneecaping is much worse. Making slight adjustments to revisions are always bound to happen but in your case, kneecaping would be if the 2018 Samsung TV were to have a noticeably worse TV in image quality and such. Speakers to matter but they aren't the main reason anyone buys a TV. If Samsung were to reduce the image quality and HDR features and such of the 2018 model vs 2016 model, now that would be kneecaping.

Austin Evans is allowed to have an opinion but opinions can also have consequences. His "deep dive" wasn't much of a deep dive. All he did was point the Thermal camera to see that the new PS5 was exhausting the heat a few degrees more. Then he took it apart and measured the weight difference and looked at them side by side. He did a few more tests but none of which is proper testing to determine the cooling performance of the heat sink. GNs video is what you would call a Deep Dive. Not to mention, all throughout Austin Evans video, he kept trying to make the situation sound worse than it is which made the situation for him even worse, especially with his clickbaity title. Yes, the fanboys are nonsense and people that are Doxxing him should be banned from the internet if not put to jail but that doesn't mean Austin Evans opinion or testing was any good either.

Well actually it turns out that the KS8000 TVs have better colors than the newer models.. because the newer models are just LED TVs where as the 2016 model was one of the first QLED TVs using Quantum Dot Technology, which seems to have been removed from the 8 Series. However we are going off course now.

300g was a significant weight reduction considering it all came from the heat sink. Questions needed to be asked as less heat sink, blowing more hot air with the exact same fan etc.

Austins video was NOT a deep dive, he even said it in his video. Its was just a quick comparison. Nothing to have been taken seriously in the first place. Different story if he did full tests and lied about the results. The only results he had was exhaust heat. He did a similar video with the Series X as well. 



Azzanation said:
EricHiggin said:

Anyone who calls DF shills aren't worth listening to. DF is about as legit and unbiased as it gets no matter what they're covering. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PS3 was delayed so SNY could add a GPU instead of having just the Cell do everything. That's not exactly cutting back or cutting corners yet didn't exactly help sales with the launch price and headstart it gave to the MS XB 360. Mind you without a GPU the launch could have been a total disaster. So, to save money and time or not? Perhaps spend more now and maybe save some later if possible? 

And lastly, lol, PS5 went from 3.9kg down to 3.6kg. A 'massive' reduction... that's caused not enough of a heat difference to worry about whatsoever in terms of gaming, yet, will certainly lead to much less fuel being burned while transporting tens of millions of units worldwide. All on top of the eco friendly packaging. 

Why doesn't MS reduce the weight of their fancy boxed 4.6kg XBSX fuel chugger?

XBSX is ruining the environment?.. 

Team "Green“ ?.. 

MS/XB are climate deniers!

Nobody get all worked up now. That's just my opinion on what little I've taken into account and concluded based on it...

You are entitled to your opinion, you wont see me bitching about it on the internet crying about what you think.

Captain_Yuri said:

Reducing weight doesn't matter much in this case as it was clearly over engineered to begin with proven by the tests.

Companies do adjust things yes but that's not kneecaping their product as kneecaping is much worse. Making slight adjustments to revisions are always bound to happen but in your case, kneecaping would be if the 2018 Samsung TV were to have a noticeably worse TV in image quality and such. Speakers to matter but they aren't the main reason anyone buys a TV. If Samsung were to reduce the image quality and HDR features and such of the 2018 model vs 2016 model, now that would be kneecaping.

Austin Evans is allowed to have an opinion but opinions can also have consequences. His "deep dive" wasn't much of a deep dive. All he did was point the Thermal camera to see that the new PS5 was exhausting the heat a few degrees more. Then he took it apart and measured the weight difference and looked at them side by side. He did a few more tests but none of which is proper testing to determine the cooling performance of the heat sink. GNs video is what you would call a Deep Dive. Not to mention, all throughout Austin Evans video, he kept trying to make the situation sound worse than it is which made the situation for him even worse, especially with his clickbaity title. Yes, the fanboys are nonsense and people that are Doxxing him should be banned from the internet if not put to jail but that doesn't mean Austin Evans opinion or testing was any good either.

Well actually it turns out that the KS8000 TVs have better colors than the newer models.. because the newer models are just LED TVs where as the 2016 model was one of the first QLED TVs using Quantum Dot Technology, which seems to have been removed from the 8 Series. However we are going off course now.

300g was a significant weight reduction considering it all came from the heat sink. Questions needed to be asked as less heat sink, blowing more hot air with the exact same fan etc.

Austins video was NOT a deep dive, he even said it in his video. Its was just a quick comparison. Nothing to have been taken seriously in the first place. Different story if he did full tests and lied about the results. The only results he had was exhaust heat. He did a similar video with the Series X as well. 

That would be quite nonsense of Samsung if that's the case assuming the price of the TV stayed the same.

The weight doesn't mean much as far as the heatsink in concerned. We have seen plenty of times in the PC space that a bigger heatsink doesn't automatically mean better cooling and now the new tests for the PS5 sets another example. I do agree that it's good to test things to confirm.

Considering what he presented in the video, he made the issue sound bigger than it needed to be. That's what got peoples attention and imo, he deserved the flack he got in return. Just not the extremes that some people went to. While he didn't lie about the results, the test that he did with the thermal camera lead him to the incorrect conclusion.



             

                               Anime: Haruhi                                                                                                           Nsfw Anime Thread                                     

Captain_Yuri said:
Azzanation said:

Well actually it turns out that the KS8000 TVs have better colors than the newer models.. because the newer models are just LED TVs where as the 2016 model was one of the first QLED TVs using Quantum Dot Technology, which seems to have been removed from the 8 Series. However we are going off course now.

300g was a significant weight reduction considering it all came from the heat sink. Questions needed to be asked as less heat sink, blowing more hot air with the exact same fan etc.

Austins video was NOT a deep dive, he even said it in his video. Its was just a quick comparison. Nothing to have been taken seriously in the first place. Different story if he did full tests and lied about the results. The only results he had was exhaust heat. He did a similar video with the Series X as well. 

That would be quite nonsense of Samsung if that's the case assuming the price of the TV stayed the same.

The weight doesn't mean much as far as the heatsink in concerned. We have seen plenty of times in the PC space that a bigger heatsink doesn't automatically mean better cooling and now the new tests for the PS5 sets another example. I do agree that it's good to test things to confirm.

Considering what he presented in the video, he made the issue sound bigger than it needed to be. That's what got peoples attention and imo, he deserved the flack he got in return. Just not the extremes that some people went to. While he didn't lie about the results, the test that he did with the thermal camera lead him to the incorrect conclusion.

I was looking at upgrading my KS8000 to the later models but when i realized that they have been butchered, to either reduce the price or to make room for newer features without drastically raising the price, i decided its best i just stay with the one i have for now. Samsung do still make QLED TVs obviously however that feature has been moved to another line of models.

This isn't something new with electronics, companies will find ways to reduce their cost on building products by sometimes sacrificing major things, some newer models might have less life span than the older ones. The reasons we see videos of people raising their eyebrows when they see big changes, like with Austin, was to see if the company is actually improving the model or are they just cheeping out while still charging the same price.

I disagree with the feedback he received, Austin didn't deserve the backlash he got, because people misinterpreted his video from the moment they saw the headline. They judged the book by its cover and didn't actually know that he wasn't claiming anything outside of the two things he did in the video, open up the console and read the heat coming out of the exhaust. He even stated in the video that further tests will need to be done to prove if it actually runs hotter. That's why i don't understand the backlash, he stated very important things in the video which people ignored and just went with, his stating lies.

Anyway it does not matter, Sony did a good job in redesigning the system by removing a fair chunk of heat sink and managed to make it run just as cool if not cooler. At least now i wont have to trade it in for the older model. I am sure the sculpers who tried to raise the price of the older machines will now have to bring the prices down to match the new model since its basically the same with no disadvantages.

Last edited by Azzanation - on 17 September 2021

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Azzanation said:
Captain_Yuri said:

That would be quite nonsense of Samsung if that's the case assuming the price of the TV stayed the same.

The weight doesn't mean much as far as the heatsink in concerned. We have seen plenty of times in the PC space that a bigger heatsink doesn't automatically mean better cooling and now the new tests for the PS5 sets another example. I do agree that it's good to test things to confirm.

Considering what he presented in the video, he made the issue sound bigger than it needed to be. That's what got peoples attention and imo, he deserved the flack he got in return. Just not the extremes that some people went to. While he didn't lie about the results, the test that he did with the thermal camera lead him to the incorrect conclusion.

I was looking at upgrading my KS8000 to the later models but when i realized that they have been butchered, to either reduce the price or to make room for newer features without drastically raising the price, i decided its best i just stay with the one i have for now. Samsung do still make QLED TVs obviously however that feature has been moved to another line of models.

This isn't something new with electronics, companies will find ways to reduce their cost on building products by sometimes sacrificing major things, some newer models might have less life span than the older ones. The reasons we see videos of people raising their eyebrows when they see big changes, like with Austin, was to see if the company is actually improving the model or are they just cheeping out while still charging the same price.

I disagree with the feedback he received, Austin didn't deserve the backlash he got, because people misinterpreted his video from the moment they saw the headline. They judged the book by its cover and didn't actually know that he wasn't claiming anything outside of the two things he did in the video, open up the console and read the heat coming out of the exhaust. He even stated in the video that further tests will need to be done to prove if it actually runs hotter. That's why i don't understand the backlash, he stated very important things in the video which people ignored and just went with, his stating lies.

Anyway it does not matter, Sony did a good job in redesigning the system by removing a fair chunk of heat sink and managed to make it run just as cool if not cooler. At least now i wont have to trade it in for the older model. I am sure the sculpers who tried to raise the price of the older machines will now have to bring the prices down to match the new model since its basically the same with no disadvantages.

Did we watch the same video?

He said pretty definitively that the new one runs hotter and it's also worse. Can you also point me to where he said "He even stated in the video that further tests will need to be done to prove if it actually runs hotter". He kept ragging on about how the new ps5 is much worse than the old one and they even went as far as to claim that the external SSD could have issues.

Last edited by Captain_Yuri - on 17 September 2021

             

                               Anime: Haruhi                                                                                                           Nsfw Anime Thread                                     

Azzanation said:
Captain_Yuri said:

That would be quite nonsense of Samsung if that's the case assuming the price of the TV stayed the same.

The weight doesn't mean much as far as the heatsink in concerned. We have seen plenty of times in the PC space that a bigger heatsink doesn't automatically mean better cooling and now the new tests for the PS5 sets another example. I do agree that it's ddddddddddgood to test things to confirm.

Considering what he presented in the video, he made the issue sound bigger than it needed to be. That's what got peoples attention and imo, he deserved the flack he got in return. Just not the extremes that some people went to. While he didn't lie about the results, the test that he did with the thermal camera lead him to the incorrect conclusion.

I was looking at upgrading my KS8000 to the later models but when i realized that they have been butchered, to either reduce the price or to make room for newer features without drastically raising the price, i decided its best i just stay with the one i have for now. Samsung do still make QLED TVs obviously however that feature has been moved to another line of models.

This isn't something new with electronics, companies will find ways to reduce their cost on building products by sometimes sacrificing major things, some newer models might have less life span than the older ones. The reasons we see videos of people raising their eyebrows when they see big changes, like with Austin, was to see if the company is actually improving the model or are they just cheeping out while still charging the same price.

I disagree with the feedback he received, Austin didn't deserve the backlash he got, because people misinterpreted his video from the moment they saw the headline. They judged the book by its cover and didn't actually know that he wasn't claiming anything outside of the two things he did in the video, open up the console and read the heat coming out of the exhaust. He even stated in the video that further tests will need to be done to prove if it actually runs hotter. That's why i don't understand the backlash, he stated very important things in the video which people ignored and just went with, his stating lies.

Anyway it does not matter, Sony did a good job in redesigning the system by removing a fair chunk of heat sink and managed to make it run just as cool if not cooler. At least now i wont have to trade it in for the older model. I am sure the sculpers who tried to raise the price of the older machines will now have to bring the prices down to match the new model since its basically the same with no disadvantages.

A few things he went full clickbait and spread old misinformation. 

Was wrong on several things and doubled downed on it. Including how heat can worsen performance (not true - at least for the APU). And had no clue on how smart shift technology works and how the APU handles clock frequencies. Tip - clocks has nothing to do with thermals. And that all PS5 should perform around the  same. That's been known since Cerny did he Road to PS5 presentation.

His testing methodology to get to his conclusion was highly questionable, near useless (without more indepth testing) and almost disingenuous. He didn't even test the FPS between consoles and conclusion came to be less heatsink and measuring heat from exhaust. Newer one = hotter = worse??

Like the guy would have saved himself a lot of grief he done some research first, and maybe a followup video, instead if playing the victim card; which was kinda embarrassing. While the doxxing and threats are BS, he should know that people behind keyboards and internet can be. Though the guy probably has earned a load of money between the two video's so he probably laughing now xP

Last edited by hinch - on 17 September 2021

This was always a non-issue... People (Like always) were making it out to be a bigger issue than it really is.
The 8th gen consoles can't overheat and damage themselves, the 9th gen consoles are even better.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Captain_Yuri said:
Azzanation said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Reducing weight doesn't matter much in this case as it was clearly over engineered to begin with proven by the tests.

Companies do adjust things yes but that's not kneecaping their product as kneecaping is much worse.

300g was a significant weight reduction considering it all came from the heat sink. Questions needed to be asked as less heat sink, blowing more hot air with the exact same fan etc.

The weight doesn't mean much as far as the heatsink in concerned. We have seen plenty of times in the PC space that a bigger heatsink doesn't automatically mean better cooling and now the new tests for the PS5 sets another example. I do agree that it's good to test things to confirm.

Azzanation said:
EricHiggin said:

Anyone who calls DF shills aren't worth listening to. DF is about as legit and unbiased as it gets no matter what they're covering. 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the PS3 was delayed so SNY could add a GPU instead of having just the Cell do everything. That's not exactly cutting back or cutting corners yet didn't exactly help sales with the launch price and headstart it gave to the MS XB 360. Mind you without a GPU the launch could have been a total disaster. So, to save money and time or not? Perhaps spend more now and maybe save some later if possible? 

And lastly, lol, PS5 went from 3.9kg down to 3.6kg. A 'massive' reduction... that's caused not enough of a heat difference to worry about whatsoever in terms of gaming, yet, will certainly lead to much less fuel being burned while transporting tens of millions of units worldwide. All on top of the eco friendly packaging. 

Why doesn't MS reduce the weight of their fancy boxed 4.6kg XBSX fuel chugger?

XBSX is ruining the environment?.. 

Team "Green“ ?.. 

MS/XB are climate deniers!

Nobody get all worked up now. That's just my opinion on what little I've taken into account and concluded based on it...

You are entitled to your opinion, you wont see me bitching about it on the internet crying about what you think.

I was being ridiculous and sarcastic about gaming climate change to make a point about jumping to conclusions. There's plenty of things that could be said to at least question or disprove what I claimed which would make my initial point moot due to lack of depth.

Though, if I were to put what I said out there on social media (minus the "nobody get all worked up now" part since it's too obvious, especially if the extreme SNY fans ran with it, you can bet the extreme XB fans would flip out and 'retaliate' in a similar manner.  Just because you and I may be more levelheaded doesn't mean everyone else would, like what already took place.

Along with the PS3 changes pre launch, the XB 360 received a heatsink expansion really early on in it's life, which didn't exactly solve the problem but did help somewhat. Truth is MS needed either a better heatsink engineering solution or needed to make more doable hardware changes. Increasing fan speeds and airflow asap in a slightly redesigned model would make sense, even if it required better fans for longevity. Just a minor separator and extension to the heatsink cooling shroud cover could have helped saved MS a lot of headaches based on what followed.

In that much different time, MS did eventually do the best they could in the end by fixing and/or replacing the RROD units, but the much bigger and more important question, which they partially answered themselves with the XB1, is should you take enough time and go overboard if need be at launch? The answer was yes, though MS focused too much on cooling and media vs gaming and aesthetics, which they slowly started to fix with the XB1S and then the XB1X.

Yet nobody really questioned those 'reductions' as to whether or not they were going to be a problem or concern. It was simply time and slowly building trust in MS that proved they were ok. SNY on the other hand, oddly had concerns raised by some about whether or not the Slim and Pro would overheat. Based on the SNY and MS past console cooling records, it is curious why SNY console revisions seem to be the one's raising alarms.

I think it's fair to say however, that for $500, the XBSX went reasonably overboard in just about every way you would want, which has so far shown to be a pretty good decision. Much like the PS5, though both consoles have gone overboard in their own respective ways. A less is more approach has certainly helped SNY when it comes to the console shortage due to chip shortages. The smaller higher clocked APU in the PS5 has allowed for considerably more consoles than if they had gone with a bigger more cores approach like XBSX. Yet MS also has steady stock of XBSS because of it's smaller APU.

I'd say big screw ups this gen would certainly be an unanticipated surprise by either company. Both seem to be doing their due diligence for the most part.