If someone did a survey of drinking habits in Vermont and Ireland, and then used that data to conclude that Europeans drink more than Americans would that be an accurate conclusion? Obviously not. Massively incomplete data sets don't tell us much of anything. Thanks.

And now I'm off to the gym. I'll be playing MHR all day, so no time for forum shenanigens until tomorrow.

Holy crap, they’re comparing people only on their own ecosystem. They aren’t extrapolating that out across the entire industry. You’d have to be either incredibly naive or incredibly biased to even think that was the case LOL

You can't be that naive to think that the same won't happen with subscription services, if it doesn't already between ps now, gamepass, stadia, ps+, xbl gold, and what else we have already.

Are or were there any GamePass games exclusive or timed exclusive for that subscription model or were they also available to buy in the Xbox marketplace?

Same eco system.

Are or were there any PSnow games exclusive or timed exclusive for that subscription model or were they also available to buy in the PS Store?

Yes (although that's more a technical issue, bc)

Are or were there any XBL Gold games exclusive or timed exclusive for that subscription model or were they also available to buy in the Xbox marketplace?

Same eco system

Are or were there any PS+ games exclusive or timed exclusive for that subscription model or were they also available to buy in the PS Store?

Same eco system

Are or were there any PC games exclusive or timed exclusive for a PC subscription model or were they also available to buy?

Yes

Has any developer team claimed that they weren't allowed to release their game on another platform due to their PC or console subscription contract?

Yes

No? Then at this point the subscription moneyhatting allegation is pure FUD.

If we'll cross that bridge, we can discuss changed opinions about gaming subscriptions again.

P. S.: Funnily enough, it is "good guy" Nintendo who offers time-limited access to certain games on Switch only via subscription and doesn't give us the option to buy the NES- and SNES-collections on Switch instead of renting them.

I'm just looking at parallels with the music, movie and tv industry. Spotify doesn't reward artists based on how much their music is streamed. Plus there have been complaints from indie developers that they don't get a fair share from games with gold / ps+ either. Just as with music, it's great for the popular guys, the ones MS/Sony will want to keep. The rest don't really have any leg to stand on when people have plenty to play through subscription services.

My own experience with TV and movies has only declined since streaming became popular. It seems every show I like gets cancelled sooner rather than later, I guess my tastes are bad lol. Or gets poached by a competing service ugh. Extras for movies are declining since they aren't on streaming services anyway.

The other thing is, MS is subsidizing the subscription service atm, who knows what the developer reward scheme will be once the users are locked in. It's a walled garden inside a walled garden. There's always PC anyway, just sucks that collecting physical games is pretty much gone from PC.

And that's what I meant with 'true gamer' (term sucks I agree). It's not the amount you pay, but to me collecting is part of it. And collecting digital / subscription services, nah. The second hand market was great for collecting games, sad to see it going away. Tbh I jumped on buying Returnal because of it having a physical edition. If it was only available digitally I would never have bought it before getting the hardware to run it on. I've bought a lot of physical editions of games I already had digitally, after they finally released a physical edition.

To sum up, to me, game subscription services are a continuation of the erosion of ownership, furthering the decline of physical games and continuation of the move to episodic content, dlc, mtx.

If someone did a survey of drinking habits in Vermont and Ireland, and then used that data to conclude that Europeans drink more than Americans would that be an accurate conclusion? Obviously not. Massively incomplete data sets don't tell us much of anything. Thanks.

And now I'm off to the gym. I'll be playing MHR all day, so no time for forum shenanigens until tomorrow.

Microsoft never claimed to have all of the data of every single person's purchasing habits on every single device, nobody would believe they have that data, they aren't speculating on limited data, they're posting facts about their own ecosystem, folk in the Xbox ecosystem spend and play more via Game Pass, they have the only relevant data needed, data from their own ecosystem.

It's not incomplete data, that's just...they're talking about their own ecosystem dude. If Sony talks about their ecosystem do they also need to know all of Xbox's financials to be allowed to do so? No, they don't give a shit, they aren't making money off Xbox players

Why are you talking about entirely different countries? a good comparison would be a country talking about something specific to only it, which benefits its own citizens and causes them to try/spend more over a traditional method.

More to the point, how the heck is Microsoft meant to make data for it unless Game Pass is also on Playstation, Nintendo?

"According to MS, GP subs spend 20% more time playing games, play 30% more games, 40% more genres, and spend around 20% more on gaming overall than users who aren't subbed to the service."

How will they know all these stats, what stats will they be using? There's no Game Pass on these consoles to say folk play more games, more genres, spend more than those who aren't subbed to the service, what service? It doesn't exist there So of course they are talking about their ecosystem and everyone knows that when they mention those numbers, they still tell us something, that Xbox players spend more, play more, try more games via Game Pass.

Hate to break it to you, but however you're buying games, the deck is stacked against small developers. Retail is way worse in that regard than subscription services, because you have to physically manufacture them, ship them out, and convince retailers to stock them. And if you're making a smaller kind of game that you can't charge full price for, your margins become razor thin once those costs come into play. There is a reason that most indie games do not have a physical version at all, and if they do, it usually only comes after the digital version has launched successfully. And there's a reason why indie games really weren't even a thing until gaming went digital. So, if that's your argument for why subscription services are a bad thing, then it's not very strong. 

If the term true gamer sucks, then why not use the term collector, since that's what we're talking about. And like with Runa, if you like collecting games then, yeah, you probably shouldn't get gamepass. But that's just personal preference. If subscription services become the predominate form of gaming and physical games go byebye, then that just means not enough people care about collecting. That's just the way the world works. A lot of things I like aren't made anymore because they just weren't popular enough to be profitable. That's a bad thing for you, but not necessarily a bad thing for the industry.