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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Well, looks like next gen didn't kill Switch third party support

Mnementh said:
Otter said:

The AAA vs non AAA argument should be contextualised to the topic at hand. Was anyone arguing that PS5 & Series X would steal all of Switch's indie support? I see that as unlikely.

But as it stands, PS5 and Xbox Series didn't steal anything. Not indies and western AAA wasn't present to begin with and therefore couldn't be stolen. As you said, this year the 3rd-party support looks better than ever.

That's the main point I feel of the thread: the release of PS5 and Xbox Series didn't impact Switch.

Not yet. 



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Mnementh said:
Otter said:

The AAA vs non AAA argument should be contextualised to the topic at hand. Was anyone arguing that PS5 & Series X would steal all of Switch's indie support? I see that as unlikely.

But as it stands, PS5 and Xbox Series didn't steal anything. Not indies and western AAA wasn't present to begin with and therefore couldn't be stolen. As you said, this year the 3rd-party support looks better than ever.

That's the main point I feel of the thread: the release of PS5 and Xbox Series didn't impact Switch.

Maybe there were those who suggested the switch will miss games like fenyx rising, doom/doom 2, mortal kombat, witcher 3, sainsts row 4 and stuff like that?  All ps4 games available on switch. Due to digital constraints I dont personally care about the majority of those titles (im not paying 50-60$ to rent a game) but I feel like its reasonable to assume thats the issue being presented. Thats the vibe im getting at least.  



Bandorr said:

What's the premise for this thread?

"For years, it seemed a common claim that once the new consoles released, third party support for Switch would quickly vanish." makes me think "the switch won't be getting games that are third party on the PS5, and X1X" - like DMC SE, Watch dogs, VIkings etc.

Then I see a list involving exclusives like "bravely default', or mult console games like "Plants vs Zombies: Battle for Neighbourville" which aren't even out on the PS5 or X1X.

So that makes me think people are suggesting that the switch wouldn't get ANY third party games no matter what. Who actually thought that?

There have been people saying Switch only gets third party ports.  That is one reason why games like Bravely Default matter, not to mention Monster Hunter Rise.

More importantly, games like Bravely Default actually matter to the people who bought a 3DS.  I can tell you that Nintendo first party barely matters to me on handhelds.  On the 3DS I didn't play any first party games.  At best, I may go back and try one of those Fire Emblem games at some point.  I bought a 3DS specifically for Bravely Default and games like it.  I can say something similar for the DS and GBA.  I did not buy any of these systems for Nintendo first party games.  The fact that they have a lot of small to mid size games matters a lot to me, and I'd wager they matter a lot in general to handheld gamers.  Does the term AAA even make sense on past handheld systems?

Those small to mid size third party games actually matter a whole lot more than people seem to think.  What is the real difference between the 3DS and Wii U?
Wii U: Bad value hardware, decent first party library, terrible third party library, sells about 13m
3DS: Bad value hardware, decent first party library, lots of small to medium third party exclusives, sells about 75m


Of course, 3DS is also a handheld, but Switch is serving both home gamers and handheld gamers (i.e. these games still matter).  On the other hand, what happens when a system focuses so much on the really major AAA games to the point that it only has a mediocre first party library?  You get the XB1, which will probably sell around 50m lifetime.  The 3DS, with it's seemingly minor third party games, sold more systems than the XB1 which has GTA5, CoD and every other major third party game.  You might say, that people bought a PS4 instead, but that is exactly why Nintendo doesn't need the AAA third party games.  Even if it gets most or all of them, people still might buy a PS4/5 instead.  On the other hand Playstation will probably never get Bravely Default and Rune Factory and other games like this, so it's actually important that the Switch gets them.  That is more unique content.

This idea that Switch needs AAA third party games is fundamentally flawed.  It does become a better system when it gets these games, but it also doesn't really need them. Switch actually has a lot of high profile games, but they are all first party games: Zelda, Animal Crossing, etc....   These fill the same role as GTA5 and CoD on a Playstation.  However people want new games to play in between major releases.  That is why the small to medium size games also matter.



AAA games are games with a big production and marketing budgets and high production value.

Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey and most likely the upcoming Metroid Prime 4 are all Nintendo produced AAA games.
While it usually doesn’t cost as much to develop for the Switch as it does on the higher specs consoles, you can still recognize which is which based on the end result’s production value, which is usually quite a step above anything else on the system. Very few outside of Nintendo make those games for the system, and even them don’t give that treatment to all their games and franchises.

Last edited by Hynad - on 24 March 2021

CarcharodonKraz said:

curl-6 said:

I don't get the fixation on "AAA" games. I enjoy some of them as much as the next guy, but I also really enjoy stuff like Ori, Yooka Laylee and the Impossible Lair, Trine 4, Hotshot Racing, FAST, Art of Balance, etc.

i think i can provide some further insight on the "fixation on AAA games".  Note, i'm attempting to speak to the preference and focus of AAA games, and not attempting to categorize or define them (although i will use some references as a tool).  Off the top of my head i think i can explain in best in 3ish points.  Time, money, a particular emotional response and the relation between the 3 (that's the ish).  As well as the demographic i may likely represent. 

When i'm spending $60-$70 on a game, there's a certain expectation of that games value proposition.  Last of Us 2 and mega man 2 are two games that have great gameplay.  But, i think it's fair to say $60 for mega man 2 is a bit of a reach.  A big reason for this is the length.  Last of us 2 took me about 40 hours and 2-3 months to beat.  Mega man 2 is going to last me 2 hours tops.  Maybe 6 if i'm a new comer.  Looking particularly at the time aspect for this example, last of us 2 is clearly the better value for that $60 price tag.  Now, i'm not blind to the fact that you can't base value on time alone.  That's why i picked 2 games i really like.  I'm sure you would have no trouble coming up with your own example that parallels those parameters. Side note, i often compare the time a game provides with movies.  I often go see a 1.5hour movie for 5 dollars on tuesdays.  So i don't think it's too much to ask for a $60 game to provide me an equal value of time of 18 hours. 

Next, let's make a more controversial comparison with 2 lengthy games. Both of which, again,  i really enjoyed.  on one hand we have octopath traveler.  Another game that took me about 40 hours to play and a game that had fantastic gameplay.  Yet, when i got to the end, i didn't feel like i got my money's worth.  I really focus in on 2-3 reasons for this. 1- the slightly outdated artstyle (which really did feed my nostalgia) and complete lack of full motion cut scenes failed to immerse me into the game world.  In addition, the team chose to string together a series of side stories you will often find in jrpgs like this instead of including them in a grander overall story.  These detractions failed to elicit that emotion i mentioned.  This feeling of being sucked into something epic and/or grandiose.  It felt more like a novel amusement.  Now, look at a game like shadow of war.  Again, i really enjoyed the gameplay here.  And the full motion cut scenes and voice acting really immersed me into the story of the game. The work put into the character animations went countering attacks really brings talion to life.  when i got to the end i felt like i really got my money's worth out of the experience.  Like the game really deserved to be as expensive as it was and that alot of money and effort was put into making me feel that way. And when your an older gamer with not that much time to begin with, focusing your gaming time on anything else feels like a waste.  

Now, I would underlline this next statement 7 times if i knew how.  *there is nothing wrong with smaller or indie games*.  Hell, shovel knight is the best NES game that was never made. But when i play those games i do so as a pallette cleanser between the AAA games i focus my gaming attention on. For myself and people like me, smaller/indie games are the cool opening act at a concert that we may really enjoy, but there not the reason we went to the show.  

Hope that was helpful.

This was a helpful post and I like to hear this perspective.

I personally do not like cutscenes in action games.  They do not immerse me more in the game.  They break my suspension of disbelief.  I think about Uncharted 4, which did something good and something bad.  They had a fair amount of cutscenes, where I just sit there and watch, which to me is frustrating in an action game.  But they also have parts where the characters talk to each other while I'm moving around.  That is cool!  It also adds to the immersion instead of taking me out of it.

So, even low budget games can have cutscenes (and often do).  But also the cheap games are more likely to offer compelling gameplay, because they realize they can't really compete with AAA on cutscenes.  To me, that makes the low budget games better.  I (usually) don't like the cutscenes anyway.  I feel like I am paying extra money for something that makes the game worse.

For example, I personally value Mega Man 2 higher than The Last of Us.  I only rented Mega Man 2, back in the day, but I regretted not buying it (my budget was tight, so it was a tough decision).  I later bought the NES classic and it was one of the first games I played.  It took me less than 6 hours to beat, but I think it took me a lot more than 6 hours back in the 80's, because it takes some trial and error to know what order to play the stages in.  I paid about $20 used for the Last of Us to see what the hype was about, had an ok time with it, and then sold it back to Gamestop when I was done.  In the end I probably lost about as many $ buying/selling The Last of Us as I did renting Mega Man 2 (when adjusted for inflation). 

I can tell you I enjoyed Mega Man 2 a hell of a lot more though.  The gameplay on Mega Man 2 destroys The Last of Us.  It's nonstop fun.  It also has better music.  People say The Last of Us has a great story, but I feel like I am watching a zombie movie.  I've never been wowed with the story in a zombie movie.  No one ever told me that World War Z was the next Citizen Kane.  But then they turn World War Z into a video game, and I'm supposed to think it is Citizen Kane now.  I just don't see it.  The game is ok, but nothing special to me.  On top of that the gameplay is not as good as Mega Man 2.  Most 3D games have a slower pace, because everything is spaced out more compared to a 2D game.  That makes Mega Man 2 feel a lot more intense in comparison, and intensity is what I want in an action game.

I am currently starting to collect NES games again.  I will probably buy Mega Man 2 at some point for whatever people are charging nowadays.  I am never going to buy The Last of Us again though.  

Last edited by The_Liquid_Laser - on 24 March 2021

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The_Liquid_Laser said:
CarcharodonKraz said:

i think i can provide some further insight on the "fixation on AAA games".  Note, i'm attempting to speak to the preference and focus of AAA games, and not attempting to categorize or define them (although i will use some references as a tool).  Off the top of my head i think i can explain in best in 3ish points.  Time, money, a particular emotional response and the relation between the 3 (that's the ish).  As well as the demographic i may likely represent. 

When i'm spending $60-$70 on a game, there's a certain expectation of that games value proposition.  Last of Us 2 and mega man 2 are two games that have great gameplay.  But, i think it's fair to say $60 for mega man 2 is a bit of a reach.  A big reason for this is the length.  Last of us 2 took me about 40 hours and 2-3 months to beat.  Mega man 2 is going to last me 2 hours tops.  Maybe 6 if i'm a new comer.  Looking particularly at the time aspect for this example, last of us 2 is clearly the better value for that $60 price tag.  Now, i'm not blind to the fact that you can't base value on time alone.  That's why i picked 2 games i really like.  I'm sure you would have no trouble coming up with your own example that parallels those parameters. Side note, i often compare the time a game provides with movies.  I often go see a 1.5hour movie for 5 dollars on tuesdays.  So i don't think it's too much to ask for a $60 game to provide me an equal value of time of 18 hours. 

Next, let's make a more controversial comparison with 2 lengthy games. Both of which, again,  i really enjoyed.  on one hand we have octopath traveler.  Another game that took me about 40 hours to play and a game that had fantastic gameplay.  Yet, when i got to the end, i didn't feel like i got my money's worth.  I really focus in on 2-3 reasons for this. 1- the slightly outdated artstyle (which really did feed my nostalgia) and complete lack of full motion cut scenes failed to immerse me into the game world.  In addition, the team chose to string together a series of side stories you will often find in jrpgs like this instead of including them in a grander overall story.  These detractions failed to elicit that emotion i mentioned.  This feeling of being sucked into something epic and/or grandiose.  It felt more like a novel amusement.  Now, look at a game like shadow of war.  Again, i really enjoyed the gameplay here.  And the full motion cut scenes and voice acting really immersed me into the story of the game. The work put into the character animations went countering attacks really brings talion to life.  when i got to the end i felt like i really got my money's worth out of the experience.  Like the game really deserved to be as expensive as it was and that alot of money and effort was put into making me feel that way. And when your an older gamer with not that much time to begin with, focusing your gaming time on anything else feels like a waste.  

Now, I would underlline this next statement 7 times if i knew how.  *there is nothing wrong with smaller or indie games*.  Hell, shovel knight is the best NES game that was never made. But when i play those games i do so as a pallette cleanser between the AAA games i focus my gaming attention on. For myself and people like me, smaller/indie games are the cool opening act at a concert that we may really enjoy, but there not the reason we went to the show.  

Hope that was helpful.

This was a helpful post and I like to hear this perspective.

I personally do not like cutscenes in action games.  They do not immerse me more in the game.  They break my suspension of disbelief.  I think about Uncharted 4, which did something good and something bad.  They had a fair amount of cutscenes, where I just sit there and watch, which to me is frustrating in an action game.  But they also have parts where the characters talk to each other while I'm moving around.  That is cool!  It also adds to the immersion instead of taking me out of it.

So, even low budget games can have cutscenes (and often do).  But also the cheap games are more likely to offer compelling gameplay, because they realize they can't really compete with AAA on cutscenes.  To me, that makes the low budget games better.  I (usually) don't like the cutscenes anyway.  I feel like I am paying extra money for something that makes the game worse.

For example, I personally value Mega Man 2 higher than The Last of Us.  I only rented Mega Man 2, back in the day, but I regretted not buying it (my budget was tight, so it was a tough decision).  I later bought the NES classic and it was one of the first games I played.  It took me less than 6 hours to beat, but I think it took me a lot more than 6 hours back in the 80's, because it takes some trial and error to know what order to play the stages in.  I paid about $20 used for the Last of Us to see what the hype was about, had an ok time with it, and then sold it back to Gamestop when I was done.  In the end I probably lost about as many $ buying/selling The Last of Us as I did renting Mega Man 2 (when adjusted for inflation). 

I can tell you I enjoyed Mega Man 2 a hell of a lot more though.  The gameplay on Mega Man 2 destroys The Last of Us.  It's nonstop fun.  It also has better music.  People say The Last of Us has a great story, but I feel like I am watching a zombie movie.  I've never been wowed with the story in a zombie movie.  No one ever told me that World War Z was the next Citizen Kane.  But then they turn World War Z into a video game, and I'm supposed to think it is Citizen Kane now.  I just don't see it.  The game is ok, but nothing special to me.  On top of that the gameplay is not as good as Mega Man 2.  Most 3D games have a slower pace, because everything is spaced out more compared to a 2D game.  That makes Mega Man 2 feel a lot more intense in comparison, and intensity is what I want in an action game.

I am currently starting to collect NES games again.  I will probably buy Mega Man 2 at some point for whatever people are charging nowadays.  I am never going to buy The Last of Us again though.  

Oh wow. Yeah other than we both love mega man 2 we couldnt be further apart lol. I didnt love some atory decisions in lou2 but I loved lou2s music and gameplay.It might actually be up there with final fantasy 6 and 7 in terms of musical direction. Thats in the co text od the game tho as I do listen to the mm2 soundtrack leisurely sometimes. And the cutscene thing. Man I was hyped for bravely 2 but after I saw the cutscenes that imo didnt even compare to the ps1 final fantasies it was a hard pass.



CarcharodonKraz said:
curl-6 said:

Fair enough, you're entitled to your preferences.

If a big part it comes down to production value, then it's kind of impossible for Switch to compete in that regard by its very nature as a device that has to function portably and therefore at a lower power level.

Still though, when AAA is but one sector of the industry, so to bring it back to the thread topic, it can't really be said that the Switch doesn't have third party support or that thirds are jumping ship just because games like Plants vs Zombies BFN, Subnautica Below Zero, No More Heroes 3, or Monster Hunter don't have the same level of production value as the latest and biggest AAA blockbusters.

Sure, I dont think anyone expected switch to lose all 3rd party support due to gen changes. It the context of ur op, it seems to me like theres a communication breakdown between you and the ppl making the claims u are referring to. I dont think ive seen anyone proclaim the switch would miss out on the titles uve mentioned due to that change. I could be wrong. Maybe uve talked to ppl who thought the next sushi striker or dynasty warriors game would be next gen exclusive, but I cant help myself to assume they meant the big AAAs weve talked about and were pointing out the very statement u just made above "its kind of impossible for switch to compete..." But, like I said, I could be wrong on that. But hey, as an aside thanks for keepin things resepctful. Not namin names but it looks like some took the topic a bit personally :)

Cheers man, thanks for also keeping things respectful. :)

I guess my point was, as another poster said, the arrival of PS5/XS hasn't impacted the Switch the way some folks claimed they would, because the people making those claims seem to have not considered third party support outside of the latest high tech blockbusters.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 25 March 2021

I doubt Nintendo would be introducing a new more powerful model with 4K graphics in 2021 if they weren't worried to some degree that the Switch could have problems with running certain games in the years going forward or the system would begin to look too dated.

Cultural phenomenons Fortnite and Minecraft do run on the Switch but there's no guarantee at all that the "next big thing" might require a spec that the current Switch can't hit. Whatever the next thing might be something that's built for a modern high end PC or PS5 and that would be a problem for a Switch version.

Furukawa strikes me as a different kind of president who isn't impressed by success in the moment because he's said that can very fleeting and change in an instant. That's the exact attitude Nintendo has needed for ages, if they had someone more on the ball like that maybe certain painful lessons would not have needed to have been learned. Being passive and drunk on your success is a recipe for getting your ass handed to you eventually.

The other thing is adopted relatively cutting edge tech like DLSS is kind of unique for post-1990s Nintendo, it will be interesting to see how different hardware development and developer outreach is under Furukawa. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 28 March 2021