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Forums - Politics - Gina Carano - Disney fired her, what does that solve?

sales2099 said:
JWeinCom said:

And I'm asking you why that matters.

If 100 people think Harry Potter is a plot to convert children to Satanists and therefore JK Rowling should be cancelled, and 1,000,000 people think that JK Rowling has fucked up views on trans people and should therefore be cancelled, which group has the right to voice their opinion? If your answer is not "both" or "neither" then you have a very logically inconsistent position.

It matters because one side is a religious niche group that would never, ever have gotten their way. Where as left wing “cancel culture” is a very real threat to entertainment properties. The louder, zealous, and more numerous you are the bigger chance you get your way.

And IP like Harry Potter has touched so many lives in a positive way that cancelling it would be a great shame. I simply hate cancel culture. Great entertainment that has nothing to do with the leanings of the creator get canned and the fanbase is left in ruins. That isn’t right. 

I apologize, I am only caught up through page 11, so I have no idea where this conversation goes from here, but I saw this post and I had to leave a hot take.

I'm going to be frank here, you need to be incredibly ignorant to discount the cultural impact that (particularly right-ward Christian) religious groups have in Hollywood, and culture in general.  So much content is stopped at the creative table because of the fear of backlash, especially among target demographics (kids animation and family films, for example).  The only reason we have the kind of content we have today is because creators pushed the envelope of what was acceptable over time and taking the criticism on the cheek.  Cable and (now) streaming have certainly accelerated the process by diversifying content, but remember what network television was like before cable television came along?

I work in Hollywood, and I can only tell you that many great ideas have been "cancelled" because of fear of the backlash impacting the bottom line.  Christians in particular may not be as vocal online, but they are in their communities... And they vote with their wallets.

Anecdotally, I grew up in what I would describe as a mainstream (for my part of the country) evangelical home.  My mother did not like Harry Potter.  My dad enjoyed it.  Opinions on the subject varied from household to household.  This led to heated arguments as well as judgment and ostracization from families in your community that disagreed with you.  On the whole, I'd argue I knew more families that weren't allowed to consume Harry Potter content, than vice versa.  Kids would often check the books out in the library and read them in secret.  Harry Potter was a taboo subject in church.  Over the years, parents stopped fighting their kids on it.  In this case, Harry Potter became too big to cancel.  But I do have distinct memories of my parents chatting with other parents about movies coming out, and if they were okay to let the kids watch, or if they promoted evil concepts.  That never went away.

Christians represent 65% of the US at large, and evangelicals, which are widely considered to be on the more socially conservative end, make up over 1/3 of the that number, with 1/4 of all Americans defining themselves as evangelical.  That is not niche.  Maybe you weren't exposed to much of the opposition back in the day.  I lived in it.

Edit: Also how queer content in general is STILL heavily censored or sidelined to prevent upsetting the socially conservative religious folks.  Anyone remember that last episode lesbian kiss in She-ra?  That was HUGE, but a moment like that could only happen at the end for fear of losing viewers.

Last edited by IvorEvilen - on 14 February 2021

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TonsofPuppies said:
StuOhQ said:

I don't think the move is so much to "solve" anything, as to shield her formed employer from increasingly incendiary public statements. If you put someone out there as the face of your business, I don't think it's crazy to ask them not to make a fool of themselves (and therefor you) on social media.

I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is that there are many other Disney employees, including Gina's own co-stars, who make controversial political statements and face no consequences for doing so. If the general rule was that if you are employed by Disney, you're forbidden from making ANY political statements on your social media accounts, that would be one thing. The issue is the hypocrisy in Disney selectively choosing what political statements are acceptable and which ones are not. Ultimately, they are allowed to terminate her for whatever reason they see fit, but their actions are clearly politically motivated and hypocritical. I think that's what most people on the "Pro-Gina" side have an issue with.

Disney cares about money. If you think anything else, you're naive. If the negative publicity you're generating will cause them to lose more money than you can gain them through being on a show, you're not going to be on the show. It's not hypocritical, because people are being evaluated in the same way (how much money can you make for me). Hypocrisy requires something akin to moral values, which unlikely entered the decision making process.



IvorEvilen said:

Edit: Also how queer content in general is STILL heavily censored or sidelined to prevent upsetting the socially conservative religious folks.  Anyone remember that last episode lesbian kiss in She-ra?  That was HUGE, but a moment like that could only happen at the end for fear of losing viewers.

I think cartoons are actually pretty widely breaking those boundaries these days (and let's not act like the rest of She-Ra wasn't already pretty gay), but I agree with your overall point. I think for a pretty good example, you can look at how the MPAA treats different types of sex scenes and even some non-sexual LGBT movies. They've historically given movies featuring same sex sexual content a higher rating (aka R vs PG13) than comparable straight sexual content, and there have been numerous controversies in the past about even non-sexual films featuring LGBT relationships having their ratings boosted to R for no apparent reason. 

When we look at the power the MPAA has over the movie industry in America, again, we see another example of the institutional power of conservative ideals which has a strong effect on our media. When someone complains about the damaging effect on speech of a bunch of people saying mean things on twitter while ignoring (whether through ignorance or not) the damaging effect of these extremely powerful institutions on speech (be it the MPAA or the Church), it is hard for me to take them seriously. 



JWeinCom said:
sales2099 said:

Given that the rate of youth coming out as trans is on a factual upswing compared to say 30 years ago, take that as you will. 

Racial superiority is a tough sell and a completely different topic compared to advocating being comfortable with what you born with. That comparison shouldn’t be made and I hope that was just a random example.

This is kinda where we are at in today’s culture war. The right can object to the left but are largely dismissed and nothing changes. The left can object, has the power to cancel, and if anybody disagrees, not only are they wrong, but they are terrible/evil people, and all traces of their impact on the Earth need to be swiftly erased from existence. Tell me....how is that equal? 

No, you don't take that as you will, you provide an explanation backed by evidence. If you wanted to find out why there is an upswing, you would conduct a study. If your study is conducted one websites specifically designed for parents unhappy about their children coming out as trans (which the study did), and didn't actually use trans people as any of your participants (which the study didn't), then you shouldn't be promoting that explanation, especially if it is liable to cause harm. And, Rowling shouldn't be promoting those studies either.

I wasn't comparing them... The point was that something being the common view is irrelevant to whether or not it is accurate or should be accepted.

I'll ignore the lulzy idea that only people on the left vilify people, which is especially ridiculous when you're defending someone for calling people who disagree with her Nazis... It's equal because the right can object, and the left can object too. Each has an equal opportunity and equal rights. 

You yourself said that whether it's 100 people or 1,000,000 they should have the right to voice their opinion. It's equal because everyone has a chance to advocate for their position. If one group is more persuasive or has a more popular position, then that's the way it is. You're entitled to equal opportunity, not equal results. If no one agrees with you then that sucks for you. Get better arguments or present them better.

Seems like your position is it's only ok to voice your opinion as long as you can't actually change anything. 

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 



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sales2099 said:
JWeinCom said:

No, you don't take that as you will, you provide an explanation backed by evidence. If you wanted to find out why there is an upswing, you would conduct a study. If your study is conducted one websites specifically designed for parents unhappy about their children coming out as trans (which the study did), and didn't actually use trans people as any of your participants (which the study didn't), then you shouldn't be promoting that explanation, especially if it is liable to cause harm. And, Rowling shouldn't be promoting those studies either.

I wasn't comparing them... The point was that something being the common view is irrelevant to whether or not it is accurate or should be accepted.

I'll ignore the lulzy idea that only people on the left vilify people, which is especially ridiculous when you're defending someone for calling people who disagree with her Nazis... It's equal because the right can object, and the left can object too. Each has an equal opportunity and equal rights. 

You yourself said that whether it's 100 people or 1,000,000 they should have the right to voice their opinion. It's equal because everyone has a chance to advocate for their position. If one group is more persuasive or has a more popular position, then that's the way it is. You're entitled to equal opportunity, not equal results. If no one agrees with you then that sucks for you. Get better arguments or present them better.

Seems like your position is it's only ok to voice your opinion as long as you can't actually change anything. 

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 

Whats the difference? I mean the person would still be nothing without an audience.



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JWeinCom said:
sales2099 said:

Speaking purely to your comment on cancel culture, he didn’t cancel anything in regards to pop culture or celebrities. That I know of anyway. Screaming “fake news” didn’t cancel CNN or the New York Times. In fact they thrived under his presidency making various news topics about him every week.

Cancel culture relates to the entertainment industry, in all its mediums and forms. Actors and IP. Movies, TV shows, etc. Things that affect regular people and their fandoms. Anything cancelled by right wing cancel culture has been dwarfed by the other spectrum cancelling things/people’s careers. 

He sure tried...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/fact-check-trump-cancel-culture-boycotts-firings/index.html

and probably succeeded in some cases...

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/19/two-fox-news-executives-involved-in-election-night-arizona-call-are-out

Like I said, cancel culture almost exclusivity relates to entertainment. Celebrities, content creators, movie, TV, etc. It’s very one-sided. 



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KLXVER said:
sales2099 said:

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 

Whats the difference? I mean the person would still be nothing without an audience.

Losing a portion of the total audience doesn’t mean the end. The IP in question can bring in less money, be shrouded in controversy, but it can still live if the core fanbase, who remains invested, keeps it going. 

Cancelling makes a definitive choice for the core fanbase without their input. And it’s worse when the advocates for cancelling aren’t fans but merely people seeking to erase what they deem as problematic. 



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sales2099 said:

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 

Well, good news: Harry Potter still exists...



sales2099 said:
JWeinCom said:

No, you don't take that as you will, you provide an explanation backed by evidence. If you wanted to find out why there is an upswing, you would conduct a study. If your study is conducted one websites specifically designed for parents unhappy about their children coming out as trans (which the study did), and didn't actually use trans people as any of your participants (which the study didn't), then you shouldn't be promoting that explanation, especially if it is liable to cause harm. And, Rowling shouldn't be promoting those studies either.

I wasn't comparing them... The point was that something being the common view is irrelevant to whether or not it is accurate or should be accepted.

I'll ignore the lulzy idea that only people on the left vilify people, which is especially ridiculous when you're defending someone for calling people who disagree with her Nazis... It's equal because the right can object, and the left can object too. Each has an equal opportunity and equal rights. 

You yourself said that whether it's 100 people or 1,000,000 they should have the right to voice their opinion. It's equal because everyone has a chance to advocate for their position. If one group is more persuasive or has a more popular position, then that's the way it is. You're entitled to equal opportunity, not equal results. If no one agrees with you then that sucks for you. Get better arguments or present them better.

Seems like your position is it's only ok to voice your opinion as long as you can't actually change anything. 

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 

When was this golden age when people didn't cancel everything that triggered them? As Ivor did a great job of pointing out, people have been applying pressure to shape media to their liking for pretty much ever. They tried to #cancel the fucking Beatles. This isn't a new thing. 

When you boycott, you tell a company you are not going to support their business unless they change X and you're going to organize other people to do the same.  That's the same exact thing as cancelling. You're just applying a special word to certain people do it. 



sundin13 said:
sales2099 said:

Change in politics/policy is one thing. But I simply feel cancelling entertainment that has nothing to do with leanings of people involved is detrimental to the fandom and people who were positively impacted by it.

Harry Potter fans like Harry Potter and any opinion by its creator shouldn’t change that. Wasn’t that long ago that people didn’t resort to cancelling everything that triggered them. Again, I advocate for boycotting, not cancelling. 

Well, good news: Harry Potter still exists...

Imo I feel this is a case of money talking. The IP is so big, even today the books sell amazing and has a passionate fanbase, that it would be very hard to erase it from existence. Hell we got a open world game coming, that has a ton of hype. It’s in everybody’s interest to keep quiet on whatever JK believes. 



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