By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Will PS/XBX follow Nintendo's footsteps?

DialgaMarine on 31 December 2020

MS? Never. Sony? Possible, but probably not. Sony seems to like using a lot of their own proprietary features still, and AMD is cheap to partner with for that.



0331 Happiness is a belt-fed weapon

Around the Network
LurkerJ on 05 January 2021
AsGryffynn said:

This only interests me if somehow MS builds a 5 nm fab that is not located in Asia

Like, who died and made TSMC king? If I was Intel, I'd skip 7 nm, tell people it's another delay and then release 5 nm processors at a lower MSRP than every TSamsungMC chip out there.

Not really sure what's your beef with Asian chips? What an odd thing to say, really.

As for MS, their chips can't come fast enough.... imagine buying a 1600 laptop that runs like shit? That's what MS has in store for you.



derpysquirtle64 on 05 January 2021
Hiku said:
derpysquirtle64 said:

First of all, if mid-men refresh happens this gen again, it certainly will be x86-based as well. If we look to provided Apple example - it took them at least 4 years from what we know to plan and make this transition to ARM happen and that's also taking into account that they've had engineers working on such SoCs for iPhones and iPads for years prior to that. Something that both Sony and Microsoft don't have. It all comes down to both companies having to make such decision already which they obviously didn't make, so ARM mid-men refresh is out of question.

Now, let's assume that the potential next-gen would be the time that both companies will think about moving away from X86.

I'll first start with Sony, because it's more easier in my opinion. Sony is not a big tech company nowadays, far from it. They simply don't have the resources to keep a state of engineers to build SoCs for them, like Apple does. So, the only way for them would be to buy an existing solution for partners and maybe ask them to make some tweaks (similar to what Nintendo did with Tegra and nVidia). The problem is - BC. We already see that all backwards compatibility on Playstation consoles is built around the idea of having the same or double core GPU config. Like PS4 -> PS4 Pro. PS4 Pro just had two PS4 GPUs stuck together and running at higher clock. PS5 GPU has the exact same core config as PS4 Pro does, but once again running at higher clocks.
So, the conclusion is - PS6 going ARM way is possible if x86 will end up at a really huge disadvantage over ARM by the time PS6 is gonna enter the planning phase (which I don't think is quite likely), but it will most likely end up in PS6 having no backwards compatibility with PS4 and PS5 games.

Now, for Microsoft. Recently there has been a Bloomberg report that Microsoft is looking into building their own ARM chips in house, just like Apple does. But as it is usual for Microsoft nowadays, the main goal is to use them for Azure cloud. Unlike Sony, Microsoft has the capability and resources to hire engineer to build their own ARM SoCs if they really see some advantage there. And given that all existing Xbox One games and Xbox Series X|S games are running in Hyper-V containers from what we know, I don't think it will be an impossible task for MS engineers to prepare some low-level command translation software like Rosetta to make this virtualized containers running on a completely different architecture. The problem with Microsoft is - will they really see a reason to put quite a lot of resources into such transition for Xbox hardware which is not selling really well? I don't think so. It's still a big question mark about will we even see the next Xbox console iteration or not and we are talking about Microsoft investing a ton of resources into making x86 - ARM transition for the very small and almost irrelevant for them part of their business.
So, the conclusion for Microsoft is - they can pull it off without any issues if they will see the need for that (which they probably won't)

P.S. Also, the ARM chips main advantages over x86 are scalability and power-efficiency. It does not seem like these things are the priority for both Sony and Microsoft consoles.

You said pretty much what I was going to say. Plus a lot more.

Though I'll add that I don't think Microsoft consider 50M units sold as not much, or not enough to be worthwhile.
Maybe someone in the upper management of MS does, but I think the current heads of Xbox plan to continue this in the next generation, even if they sell similar amounts of units again. It's still fairly profitable for them due to all the software and subscriptions sold.

Hard to disagree with the fact that 50m consoles sold is quite a good number especially in case of Microsoft if they will have lots of steady revenue incomes from other sources by then. I just personally don't see any potential scenario where Microsoft ditches console hardware in hope that they can make up that revenue from cloud and PC alone. 50m console owners completely locked to your ecosystem is just way too big piece of the pie to get rid of it.



 

JimmyFantasy on 05 January 2021

ARM architecture is the next step in the evolution of CPUs, that's for sure, and the Apple M1 is the proof that it's already happening.
Nvidia is just in the right place owning ARM itself, while I think AMD will surely follows when the performance gap will become evident on high-end PC CPUs.

Nintendo is already in good hand, Sony and Microsoft will shift to ARM at the right time but at first they will lose backward compatibility.

I'm looking forward to see what Apple will release next!

Geekbench 5, 64bit (CPU Single-Core)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g - 1215

Apple M1 - 1718

Geekbench 5, 64bit (CPU Multi-Core)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g - 6722

Apple M1 - 7534

iGPU - FP32 (GFLOPS Single-Precision)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g (iGPU) - 1702

Apple M1 (iGPU) - 2600

source -> cpu-monkey

Last edited by JimmyFantasy - on 05 January 2021

derpysquirtle64 on 05 January 2021
JimmyFantasy said:

ARM architecture is the next step in the evolution of CPUs, that's for sure, and the Apple M1 is the proof that it's already happening.
Nvidia is just in the right place owning ARM itself, while I think AMD will surely follows when the performance gap will become evident on high-end PC CPUs.

Nintendo is already in good hand, Sony and Microsoft will shift to ARM at the right time but at first they will lose backward compatibility.

I'm looking forward to see what Apple will release next!

Geekbench 5, 64bit (CPU Single-Core)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g - 1215

Apple M1 - 1718

Geekbench 5, 64bit (CPU Multi-Core)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g - 6722

Apple M1 - 7534

iGPU - FP32 (GFLOPS Single-Precision)

AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 4650g (iGPU) - 1702

Apple M1 (iGPU) - 2600

source -> cpu-monkey

I'm gonna bet that Xbox won't lose B/C if it goes ARM way. All games are already running under special runtime as a Hyper-V container. MS would just need to create some sort of transition layer to make them work on ARM cpus.



 

Around the Network
Jumpin on 06 January 2021

It'll be interesting. If Sony and Xbox don't move to ARM architecture in 7 years, or some similar RISC, then Nintendo's next console is going to blow them away in power. There is no way X86 is going to keep up with the momentum of ARM at this point. X86 is a dinosaur that's heading toward extinction. The M1 chip is exactly the sort of direction that consoles will be taking - it won't be Apple, but some Nvidia solution.

The fact that Apple came to the playing field with entry level chips in cheap-ass macs that are already smoking high-end chips in certain capacities just makes you wonder how far ahead they'll be in 2-3 years. ARM tech is where the biggest investment is happening. Apple is an American company that has risen to #1 in the Japanese desktop PC market thanks to the M1 Mac Mini seizing 26% of the PC market. I can see them advancing worldwide market share if the competition doesn't quickly transition.

My opinion, Microsoft switches Xbox to ARM by 2026.

If Sony doesn't, in 7 years, Playstation is toast, it won't have any compelling feature except a very very loud fan system.

Would you like to know more?

Last edited by Jumpin - on 06 January 2021

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Alby_da_Wolf on 07 January 2021
Jumpin said:

It'll be interesting. If Sony and Xbox don't move to ARM architecture in 7 years, or some similar RISC, then Nintendo's next console is going to blow them away in power. There is no way X86 is going to keep up with the momentum of ARM at this point. X86 is a dinosaur that's heading toward extinction. The M1 chip is exactly the sort of direction that consoles will be taking - it won't be Apple, but some Nvidia solution.

The fact that Apple came to the playing field with entry level chips in cheap-ass macs that are already smoking high-end chips in certain capacities just makes you wonder how far ahead they'll be in 2-3 years. ARM tech is where the biggest investment is happening. Apple is an American company that has risen to #1 in the Japanese desktop PC market thanks to the M1 Mac Mini seizing 26% of the PC market. I can see them advancing worldwide market share if the competition doesn't quickly transition.

My opinion, Microsoft switches Xbox to ARM by 2026.

If Sony doesn't, in 7 years, Playstation is toast, it won't have any compelling feature except a very very loud fan system.

Would you like to know more?

Both AMD and Intel could decide to give direct access to their microarchitectures, bypassing the x86 translation layer that would be used just for legacy applications (and could be gradually abandoned when emulation starts reaching the native performances of the last x86 CPUs, but could be dropped altogether, saving silicon, for CPU models targeted to users not needing legacy).
Basically, the generation approach stops for the next years required x86 performances at PS5 APU level for PS5 exclusives, while PS5/XBS multiplats will just need XBSS APU performances as minimum requirements, this means that if next gen x86 will be abandoned, new RISC CPUs with legacy x86 BC will just need a bypassable translation layer capable of supporting 7 years old x86 performances, for the transistor numbers APUs and GPUs will have by then, it will be a modest increase. Such transition would be a lot more painless than on PC, where x86 performances will keep on growing through the whole generation.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!   


Trumpstyle on 07 January 2021
derpysquirtle64 said:


Now, let's assume that the potential next-gen would be the time that both companies will think about moving away from X86.

I'll first start with Sony, because it's more easier in my opinion. Sony is not a big tech company nowadays, far from it. They simply don't have the resources to keep a state of engineers to build SoCs for them, like Apple does. So, the only way for them would be to buy an existing solution for partners and maybe ask them to make some tweaks (similar to what Nintendo did with Tegra and nVidia). The problem is - BC. We already see that all backwards compatibility on Playstation consoles is built around the idea of having the same or double core GPU config. Like PS4 -> PS4 Pro. PS4 Pro just had two PS4 GPUs stuck together and running at higher clock. PS5 GPU has the exact same core config as PS4 Pro does, but once again running at higher clocks.
So, the conclusion is - PS6 going ARM way is possible if x86 will end up at a really huge disadvantage over ARM by the time PS6 is gonna enter the planning phase (which I don't think is quite likely), but it will most likely end up in PS6 having no backwards compatibility with PS4 and PS5 games.

Now, for Microsoft. Recently there has been a Bloomberg report that Microsoft is looking into building their own ARM chips in house, just like Apple does. But as it is usual for Microsoft nowadays, the main goal is to use them for Azure cloud. Unlike Sony, Microsoft has the capability and resources to hire engineer to build their own ARM SoCs if they really see some advantage there. And given that all existing Xbox One games and Xbox Series X|S games are running in Hyper-V containers from what we know, I don't think it will be an impossible task for MS engineers to prepare some low-level command translation software like Rosetta to make this virtualized containers running on a completely different architecture. The problem with Microsoft is - will they really see a reason to put quite a lot of resources into such transition for Xbox hardware which is not selling really well? I don't think so. It's still a big question mark about will we even see the next Xbox console iteration or not and we are talking about Microsoft investing a ton of resources into making x86 - ARM transition for the very small and almost irrelevant for them part of their business.
So, the conclusion for Microsoft is - they can pull it off without any issues if they will see the need for that (which they probably won't)

P.S. Also, the ARM chips main advantages over x86 are scalability and power-efficiency. It does not seem like these things are the priority for both Sony and Microsoft consoles.

Just wanna point out several things, first if the next-gen consoles launches around 2025-2026 I can easily see they having 16-core ARM cpu with more than 2x ipc than current consoles, probably clocked at 4ghz.

I don't know anything about emulation but this should make it easy for both Sony and MS to emulate previous gen games. They don't really need 100% perfect emulation anyway.

It will be AMD who builds the SOC, not Sony/MS. Most likely ARM(Cpu) + RDNA(gpu).

Second point, the main advantage ARM has over X86 is its ipc advantage, I don't know much about this but just what I read from very highly knowledgable people, X86 will lose against ARM because it's basically stuck at 4 decoders, it's very hard for a x86 cpu to go beyond this while ARM can go unlimited. Skylake from intel supposedly have 5 decoders in some press news but this is inaccurate, it has 4 decoders same as zen3. M1 has 8 decoders. It's because of the decoders ARM can have much higher ipc (Perf/ghz).

M1 has around 1.53x higher ipc than Zen3, the new snapdragon that will launch soon around 15%.

The Perf/w and smaller cores ARM gives is just a bonus.

Last edited by Trumpstyle - on 07 January 2021

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

derpysquirtle64 on 07 January 2021
Trumpstyle said:
derpysquirtle64 said:


Now, let's assume that the potential next-gen would be the time that both companies will think about moving away from X86.

I'll first start with Sony, because it's more easier in my opinion. Sony is not a big tech company nowadays, far from it. They simply don't have the resources to keep a state of engineers to build SoCs for them, like Apple does. So, the only way for them would be to buy an existing solution for partners and maybe ask them to make some tweaks (similar to what Nintendo did with Tegra and nVidia). The problem is - BC. We already see that all backwards compatibility on Playstation consoles is built around the idea of having the same or double core GPU config. Like PS4 -> PS4 Pro. PS4 Pro just had two PS4 GPUs stuck together and running at higher clock. PS5 GPU has the exact same core config as PS4 Pro does, but once again running at higher clocks.
So, the conclusion is - PS6 going ARM way is possible if x86 will end up at a really huge disadvantage over ARM by the time PS6 is gonna enter the planning phase (which I don't think is quite likely), but it will most likely end up in PS6 having no backwards compatibility with PS4 and PS5 games.

Now, for Microsoft. Recently there has been a Bloomberg report that Microsoft is looking into building their own ARM chips in house, just like Apple does. But as it is usual for Microsoft nowadays, the main goal is to use them for Azure cloud. Unlike Sony, Microsoft has the capability and resources to hire engineer to build their own ARM SoCs if they really see some advantage there. And given that all existing Xbox One games and Xbox Series X|S games are running in Hyper-V containers from what we know, I don't think it will be an impossible task for MS engineers to prepare some low-level command translation software like Rosetta to make this virtualized containers running on a completely different architecture. The problem with Microsoft is - will they really see a reason to put quite a lot of resources into such transition for Xbox hardware which is not selling really well? I don't think so. It's still a big question mark about will we even see the next Xbox console iteration or not and we are talking about Microsoft investing a ton of resources into making x86 - ARM transition for the very small and almost irrelevant for them part of their business.
So, the conclusion for Microsoft is - they can pull it off without any issues if they will see the need for that (which they probably won't)

P.S. Also, the ARM chips main advantages over x86 are scalability and power-efficiency. It does not seem like these things are the priority for both Sony and Microsoft consoles.

Just wanna point out several things, first if the next-gen consoles launches around 2025-2026 I can easily see they having 16-core ARM cpu with more than 2x ipc than current consoles, probably clocked at 4ghz.

I don't know anything about emulation but this should make it easy for both Sony and MS to emulate previous gen games. They don't really need 100% perfect emulation anyway.

It will be AMD who builds the SOC, not Sony/MS. Most likely ARM(Cpu) + RDNA(gpu).

Second point, the main advantage ARM has over X86 is its ipc advantage, I don't know much about this but just what I read from very highly knowledgable people, X86 will lose against ARM because it's basically stuck at 4 decoders, it's very hard for a x86 cpu to go beyond this while ARM can go unlimited. Skylake from intel supposedly have 5 decoders in some press news but this is inaccurate, it has 4 decoders same as zen3. M1 has 8 decoders. It's because of the decoders ARM can have much higher ipc (Perf/ghz).

M1 has around 1.53x higher ipc than Zen3, the new snapdragon that will launch soon around 15%.

The Perf/w and smaller cores ARM gives is just a bonus.

"It will be AMD who builds the SOC, not Sony/MS. Most likely ARM(Cpu) + RDNA(gpu)."

But what if AMD would not want to build ARM-based SoCs? Yes, as I've mentioned in my post, I don't see Sony being able to create their own ARM SoC. So they would have to rely either on Nvidia with Tegra or AMD (if they'll jump on board with ARM). Another options can be Qualcomm or Samsung I suppose. By the way if I'm not mistaken Samsung is partnering with AMD for some of their newer Exynos SoCs to improve graphics. I think I've heard it somewhere.

"Second point, the main advantage ARM has over X86 is its ipc advantage, I don't know much about this but just what I read from very highly knowledgable people, X86 will lose against ARM because it's basically stuck at 4 decoders, it's very hard for a x86 cpu to go beyond this while ARM can go unlimited. Skylake from intel supposedly have 5 decoders in some press news but this is inaccurate, it has 4 decoders same as zen3. M1 has 8 decoders. It's because of the decoders ARM can have much higher ipc (Perf/ghz).

M1 has around 1.53x higher ipc than Zen3, the new snapdragon that will launch soon around 15%."

I'm not really sure what is meant here by decoders, I guess it is probably refering to GPRs (General Purpose Registers), but not sure. The issue is with IPC comparison. It's not indicative of performance at all. Because x86 is a CISC processor and ARM is a RISC processor. They have completely different instruction sets. Just an example from the internet, in x86 assembly a=b/c operation looks like this:

mov eax, b

xor edx, edx

div dword ptr c

mov a, eax

4 instructions only. Result will be put in memory where a is stored, plus the remainder will be left in edx GPR.

In ARM it would be like this:

mov r5, addr b

mov r5, [r5]

mov r6, addr c

mov r6, [r6]

div r7, r5, r6

mov r5, addr a

mov [r5], r7

7 instructions. The result will be stored to "a" as in x86 but you also will never receive a remainder anywhere.

That's the perfect example of why you can't compare IPC between ARM and x86, as with ARM's reduced instruction set, it is usually required to run more instructions compared to x86 to perform the same operation.



 

Agente42 on 07 January 2021

arm chip and dlss is the future.