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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - DLSS 2.1 Ultra Performance Mode (Switch 2 Discussion)

vivster said:
Dulfite said:
Can someone explain to me what the difference is between DLSS to normal resolution pixels? And am I correct in assuming DLSS is a more efficient way to have better visuals, which means weaker hardware can have better visuals, or is that wrong?

DLSS is based on Deep Learning. Super sampling works by making images sharper by rendering them in a higher resolution and then take that more precise information and use it to draw a sharper image. In DLSS you use an AI to learn how a game is supposed to look like in a higher resolution and then apply the resulting algorithm to the picture. This way the algorithm can seemingly create information out of nowhere, thanks to past training. That process is way less demanding on hardware than having to calculate a whole picture in a high resolution. It's so effective that you can basically do the opposite of regular super sampling, which downscales a high resolution to a lower one. DLSS instead uses a lower resolution and then upscales it with additional information from the deep learning algorithm.

That way you can have a better looking picture while still using way less compute power. A technique like that is great for consoles and especially for Nintendo, since they like to underpower their hardware. If the game is built with DLSS in mind it could actually be an amazing innovation and deliver high fps in high resolutions and highly detailed textures on comparably weak machines.

1. So hypothetically, DLSS could make Switch 2 just as good looking as an Xbox Series X, if they could make it efficient enough? Or perhaps by Switch 3?

2. Why would Microsoft and Sony not abandon current methods and embrace DLSS themselves, if this is more efficient?

3. If the other two continue in the more in-efficient methods, then could we see Nintendo catch up to the power levels of the other two in a gen or two, by means of more efficient and cheaper technology?

Last edited by Dulfite - on 09 October 2020

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Yea DLSS continues to be insane. As they continue to improve on their Ai tech, even 360p image will look close to native in the future. I just hope the switch 2 implements it.



             

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1. Yes, the switch 2 with DLSS will close the power gap unlike anything we’ve seen in our life time.

2. DLSS is exclusive to Nvidia

3. I mean Arm cpu is breathing on x86’s neck. That wasn’t possible years ago. Mobile computing has progressed so fast. Faster than desktop.



The exciting thing is that the technology is still in its early stages and can be iterated on through updates. As somebidy who likes as clear image quality as possible with as few distracting artifacts as possible, this is very exciting indeed.



Also, in order to fully utilize the technology (as well as others like VRS) game engines need to be updated. When new games will be built from the ground up with these technologies in mind, the results will be even better.



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I think this would be a better idea to save for Switch 2. I feel like it might be too much of a game-changer for a Switch Pro. The DSi and New 3DS improved specs and some features, but they weren't as significant of an upgrade as an Xbox One to Xbox One X.

I think a Switch Pro could keep pretty identical architecture to the Switch, but with a faster processor, 6 GB RAM, more flash storage, a 900p or 1080p screen, etc.



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BlackBeauty said:

1. Yes, the switch 2 with DLSS will close the power gap unlike anything we’ve seen in our life time.

2. DLSS is exclusive to Nvidia

3. I mean Arm cpu is breathing on x86’s neck. That wasn’t possible years ago. Mobile computing has progressed so fast. Faster than desktop.

Bear in mind that both AMD and MS are working on their own competitors to DLSS. We could see developers using those on PS5 and Xbox Series X before the end of the generation, to run games at native 1080p or 1440p AI upscaled to 4K, to free up resources to use to push graphics further instead. Developers could also use AMD's or Microsoft's DLSS competitor to run Series S games natively at 720p or 900p, AI upscaled to 1440p. I don't know if DLSS will magically close the gap for Nintendo. 

The good news for Nintendo is that they should be able to release a Switch 2 with specs that are pretty close to Xbox Series S by about 2023, close enough that they shouldn't have too much trouble convincing 3rd party developers to port to Switch 2. Something like a 3 tflop docked, 1.5 tflop handheld GPU, best ARM CPU available in 2023, and LPDDR5 RAM should be good enough to get 3rd party ports again. The main issue for Nintendo is going to be storage, how to get games that were built from the ground up for NVMe SSD's onto Switch 2. Internal SSD for digital gaming on Switch 2 won't be a problem, a 500 GB internal SSD for Switch 2 should be more than affordable by 2023, with expandable internal storage made possible with SDXC Express cards, which are available in sizes up to 2 TB and have either 1969 MB/s or 3938 MB/s speeds depending on rather 1 or 2 PCI Express 4.0 lanes are used. The issue is what to do about physical games on Switch 2. Game cards for physical Switch 2 games that are fast enough for next-gen game ports could be very expensive, I could see the price of physical games being $15-20 higher than digital versions on Switch 2.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 09 October 2020

Dulfite said:
vivster said:

DLSS is based on Deep Learning. Super sampling works by making images sharper by rendering them in a higher resolution and then take that more precise information and use it to draw a sharper image. In DLSS you use an AI to learn how a game is supposed to look like in a higher resolution and then apply the resulting algorithm to the picture. This way the algorithm can seemingly create information out of nowhere, thanks to past training. That process is way less demanding on hardware than having to calculate a whole picture in a high resolution. It's so effective that you can basically do the opposite of regular super sampling, which downscales a high resolution to a lower one. DLSS instead uses a lower resolution and then upscales it with additional information from the deep learning algorithm.

That way you can have a better looking picture while still using way less compute power. A technique like that is great for consoles and especially for Nintendo, since they like to underpower their hardware. If the game is built with DLSS in mind it could actually be an amazing innovation and deliver high fps in high resolutions and highly detailed textures on comparably weak machines.

1. So hypothetically, DLSS could make Switch 2 just as good looking as an Xbox Series X, if they could make it efficient enough? Or perhaps by Switch 3?

2. Why would Microsoft and Sony not abandon current methods and embrace DLSS themselves, if this is more efficient?

3. If the other two continue in the more in-efficient methods, then could we see Nintendo catch up to the power levels of the other two in a gen or two, by means of more efficient and cheaper technology?

1. Certain games could be run at the same resolution and look just as good as on the new consoles. De pends also how much Nvidia is beefing up the chip with tensor cores.

2. AMD doesn't have anything equivalent and abandoning AMD does not make any sense for only a slight visual upgrade. They also have much more power to play with in general so they are not too dependent on it.

3. It's not a magic bullet. There is more to games than resolution. It helps a lot but if the console cannot deliver all the other calculations needed to run the game DLSS won't do too much. It will certainly help in Nintendo games, not so much in highly demanding graphically complex AAA games.



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Kristof81 said:

If this technology could upscale all Switch games to "only" 1080p, I'd be more than happy, especially in games like the witcher or doom 

Don't expect anything for current Switch games on the DLSS front.

But... If we do get faster hardware, many Switch games use a dynamic resolution scaler so we should see higher resolutions natively via brute force.

BlackBeauty said:

1. Yes, the switch 2 with DLSS will close the power gap unlike anything we’ve seen in our life time.

It's got it's Pro's and Con's. I still prefer to render at a native resolution personally on PC.

BlackBeauty said:

2. DLSS is exclusive to Nvidia

DLSS is nVidia exclusive, but alternatives to DLSS are not exclusive... Like DirectML.

BlackBeauty said:

3. I mean Arm cpu is breathing on x86’s neck. That wasn’t possible years ago. Mobile computing has progressed so fast. Faster than desktop.

ARM isn't anywhere near from touching high-powered x86 processors, especially workstation class chips.

But... Feel free to point me to a commodity ARM chip that can make AMD's Ryzen 5950X sweat... Let alone Threadripper or Xeon in single and multi-threaded scenarios.

shikamaru317 said:

Bear in mind that both AMD and MS are working on their own competitors to DLSS. We could see developers using those on PS5 and Xbox Series X before the end of the generation, to run games at native 1080p or 1440p AI upscaled to 4K, to free up resources to use to push graphics further instead. Developers could also use AMD's or Microsoft's DLSS competitor to run Series S games natively at 720p or 900p, AI upscaled to 1440p. I don't know if DLSS will magically close the gap for Nintendo. 

AMD is just going to use DirectML which is available right now, it's hardware agnostic, but they also have AMD Radeon Image Sharpening as a tool which actually provides better results than older DLSS implementations.
Obviously DLSS2.1 is another beast entirely that Radeon Image Sharpening can't really touch.

shikamaru317 said:

The good news for Nintendo is that they should be able to release a Switch 2 with specs that are pretty close to Xbox Series S by about 2023, close enough that they shouldn't have too much trouble convincing 3rd party developers to port to Switch 2. Something like a 3 tflop docked, 1.5 tflop handheld GPU, best ARM CPU available in 2023, and LPDDR5 RAM should be good enough to get 3rd party ports again. The main issue for Nintendo is going to be storage, how to get games that were built from the ground up for NVMe SSD's onto Switch 2. Internal SSD for digital gaming on Switch 2 won't be a problem, a 500 GB internal SSD for Switch 2 should be more than affordable by 2023, with expandable internal storage made possible with SDXC Express cards, which are available in sizes up to 2 TB and have either 1969 MB/s or 3938 MB/s speeds depending on rather 1 or 2 PCI Express 4.0 lanes are used. The issue is what to do about physical games on Switch 2. Game cards for physical Switch 2 games that are fast enough for next-gen game ports could be very expensive, I could see the price of physical games being $15-20 higher than digital versions on Switch 2.

That's if Nintendo decides on going with the Switch form factor again, they might do something completely different, Nintendo operates in it's own way.

Hopefully Switch 2 sticks with ROM carts, they are a proven commodity, cheap, reliable and secure.

They taste fantastic too.

PCI-E 5.0 should be on the market by then.







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It's going to be so exciting with what tech Nintendo will come up in their next generation console (i.e. Switch 2, even the rumored Switch Pro is interesting)