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Forums - Gaming - Phil Spencer Says Xbox Series X Games Aren't Being Held Back By Xbox One

sales2099 on 16 July 2020
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
Of course Series S and Series X will play the same games with the same design, that’s the entire point? With one shooting for lower resolution.

Countless people can educate you on this but you seem dead set on ignoring anything that doesn’t support your latest anti-Xbox tin foil hat theory.

The only difference WILL be resolution, that's my whole point here lol.

Again... For argument sake, lets say an exclusive on ps5 and Lockhart would target the exact same resolution and framerate. Then what you think would look better, a Gears 6 optimized for Lockhart or something like Uncharted 5 optimized for the ps5 that has almost 3 times the gpu power...It would be about the difference between the Switch and the ps4 lol.

Not sure what 3rd party developers will do but if Lockhart sells huge numbers, that could become the base platform for the entire console generation. Meaning, on PC, Series X and ps5 we'll all be playing upscaled 4Tflop games because of it.

Actually your entire point is speculation, nothing more until Lockhart is official and we see side by side comparisons. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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DonFerrari on 16 July 2020
goopy20 said:
DonFerrari said:

Lockhart won't be 1/3 of Series X price, not even 1/2.

From the rumour almost everything is the same between both. It have 1/3 of the GPU power and a little less RAM and CPU power that would keep similar performance to Series X on the intended resolution. Probably some saving on cooling as well and perhaps it will be full digital.

The GPU isn't so expensive that cutting its power in 66% would make the price drop the same.

The only way for Lockhart to be half the price is if MS sell Series X for profit (let's say 599) and subside Lockhart discless (for 299).

There's a pretty big price difference between a RTX2080 Super and a GTX1060, though.

Still console makers pay a very different price on the GPU part or their APU compared to PC parts.

From the breakdown of PS4 and X1 I remember something like less than 100 USD cost for the GPU. And for this new gen I doubt the cost of GPU for PS5 and XSX is over 200 USD.

So even if it was possible to pay 1/3 the cost for the 1/3 of the power (it isn't, because the chips cost to manufacture doesn't scale linearly, you'll always have the optimum curve where a size and speed will be the most cost efficient and the reduction of any in let's say 50% won't net 50% saving in cost, similarly when going above then a increase in 50% may even be 100% more costly).

So if I had to guess all the saving possibles for Lockhart (cost, not final price since that may be dependent on willingness to take loss)

If remove disc - 30 USD

Lower performance GPU - 50 USD

Less RAM - 50 USD

Slightly less powerfull CPU - 20 USD

So it could undercut XSX by 150 USD. Daniel Ahmad estimate XSX BOM to be between 460 and 520. If we go for the lowest option we could say that Lockhart would cost at least 300 to build plus other costs to ship to retail and their cuts MS to sell it at 299 would need to subside 50 bucks (quite regular sub). So for Series X to sell for the triple it would mean 900 USD (won't happen) and for they to sell for the double it would be 599 (so about 70 of profit). If they just sell for the price of the BOM it would be 300 vs 460 or 35% less (which is already a good saving, I wouldn't buy the low entry because I prefer to have the best performance possible for a reasonable price and saving 150 USD to have 1/3 of the graphic performance even with everything else up to par isn't for me, but sure I can see a lot of people interested in it even more if they use gamepass and xbl subs for a long term contract and person can walk out with console+gp+xbl for 0 upfront payment and perhaps 30-40 USD/month meaning they will have games available for the life of the console basically paying just the subs they would pay anyway and a very small additional monthly cost to pay for the console). Still your 1/3 or 1/2 of the price seems very off the curve.

I see something like this, Lockhart no disc 299 (50 subside), PS5 no disc 399 (100 subside), PS5 with disc 499 (no subside), XSX 549 (no subside).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

LudicrousSpeed on 16 July 2020

goopy: well the push for 4k/60-120 is a complete waste of next gen power! A console shouldn’t push for resolution and frame rate!

Also goopy: well a console that doesn’t push 4k60-120 from MS is also bad!

Based on all the talk from you these past months and how angry you say you have been about MS wasting power, seems to me that if the Lockhart is real, it is literally your wet dream of a console? Yet somehow you still have issue with it.



goopy20 on 16 July 2020
DonFerrari said:
goopy20 said:

There's a pretty big price difference between a RTX2080 Super and a GTX1060, though.

Still console makers pay a very different price on the GPU part or their APU compared to PC parts.

From the breakdown of PS4 and X1 I remember something like less than 100 USD cost for the GPU. And for this new gen I doubt the cost of GPU for PS5 and XSX is over 200 USD.

So even if it was possible to pay 1/3 the cost for the 1/3 of the power (it isn't, because the chips cost to manufacture doesn't scale linearly, you'll always have the optimum curve where a size and speed will be the most cost efficient and the reduction of any in let's say 50% won't net 50% saving in cost, similarly when going above then a increase in 50% may even be 100% more costly).

So if I had to guess all the saving possibles for Lockhart (cost, not final price since that may be dependent on willingness to take loss)

If remove disc - 30 USD

Lower performance GPU - 50 USD

Less RAM - 50 USD

Slightly less powerfull CPU - 20 USD

So it could undercut XSX by 150 USD. Daniel Ahmad estimate XSX BOM to be between 460 and 520. If we go for the lowest option we could say that Lockhart would cost at least 300 to build plus other costs to ship to retail and their cuts MS to sell it at 299 would need to subside 50 bucks (quite regular sub). So for Series X to sell for the triple it would mean 900 USD (won't happen) and for they to sell for the double it would be 599 (so about 70 of profit). If they just sell for the price of the BOM it would be 300 vs 460 or 35% less (which is already a good saving, I wouldn't buy the low entry because I prefer to have the best performance possible for a reasonable price and saving 150 USD to have 1/3 of the graphic performance even with everything else up to par isn't for me, but sure I can see a lot of people interested in it even more if they use gamepass and xbl subs for a long term contract and person can walk out with console+gp+xbl for 0 upfront payment and perhaps 30-40 USD/month meaning they will have games available for the life of the console basically paying just the subs they would pay anyway and a very small additional monthly cost to pay for the console). Still your 1/3 or 1/2 of the price seems very off the curve.

I see something like this, Lockhart no disc 299 (50 subside), PS5 no disc 399 (100 subside), PS5 with disc 499 (no subside), XSX 549 (no subside).

Lockhart sounds like a pretty crap deal if that's true. You would get a 2.5 times Less powerful gpu just to save $100, which is the price of 1.5 game. WE'll see about the pricing but it's really the 4Tflops part of Lockhart that worries me the most.



kirby007 on 16 July 2020

@Pemalite that running below minimum specs story reminds me of playing oblivion on a shitty old laptob.
It worked well, but i ended up doing a mission needing to shoot something in the distance in a dungeon without seeing what i needed to shoot ( i think it was a one of the last thieves guild quests ) that ended up quite tricky



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

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DonFerrari on 16 July 2020
goopy20 said:
DonFerrari said:

Still console makers pay a very different price on the GPU part or their APU compared to PC parts.

From the breakdown of PS4 and X1 I remember something like less than 100 USD cost for the GPU. And for this new gen I doubt the cost of GPU for PS5 and XSX is over 200 USD.

So even if it was possible to pay 1/3 the cost for the 1/3 of the power (it isn't, because the chips cost to manufacture doesn't scale linearly, you'll always have the optimum curve where a size and speed will be the most cost efficient and the reduction of any in let's say 50% won't net 50% saving in cost, similarly when going above then a increase in 50% may even be 100% more costly).

So if I had to guess all the saving possibles for Lockhart (cost, not final price since that may be dependent on willingness to take loss)

If remove disc - 30 USD

Lower performance GPU - 50 USD

Less RAM - 50 USD

Slightly less powerfull CPU - 20 USD

So it could undercut XSX by 150 USD. Daniel Ahmad estimate XSX BOM to be between 460 and 520. If we go for the lowest option we could say that Lockhart would cost at least 300 to build plus other costs to ship to retail and their cuts MS to sell it at 299 would need to subside 50 bucks (quite regular sub). So for Series X to sell for the triple it would mean 900 USD (won't happen) and for they to sell for the double it would be 599 (so about 70 of profit). If they just sell for the price of the BOM it would be 300 vs 460 or 35% less (which is already a good saving, I wouldn't buy the low entry because I prefer to have the best performance possible for a reasonable price and saving 150 USD to have 1/3 of the graphic performance even with everything else up to par isn't for me, but sure I can see a lot of people interested in it even more if they use gamepass and xbl subs for a long term contract and person can walk out with console+gp+xbl for 0 upfront payment and perhaps 30-40 USD/month meaning they will have games available for the life of the console basically paying just the subs they would pay anyway and a very small additional monthly cost to pay for the console). Still your 1/3 or 1/2 of the price seems very off the curve.

I see something like this, Lockhart no disc 299 (50 subside), PS5 no disc 399 (100 subside), PS5 with disc 499 (no subside), XSX 549 (no subside).

Lockhart sounds like a pretty crap deal if that's true. You would get a 2.5 times Less powerful gpu just to save $100, which is the price of 1.5 game. WE'll see about the pricing but it's really the 4Tflops part of Lockhart that worries me the most.

Lockhart versus XSX within that scenario would be 250 USD difference. MS can't really control Sony, and of course all the prices I put can end up totally wrong. But still the cost for MS in buckles of the GPU wouldn't make Lockhart cost 1/3 the production cost of Series X. Perhaps if everything on the console was cut to 1/3 performance it could cost MS less than half the price to assembly (not truly real, just look at PS4 and X1, they probably cost about 150-200 to assembly, and are 1/10 the performance of XSX or even less still XSX won't cost 10x more).

But rumor of Lockhart is that GPU is 1/3 but RAM, SSD, IO and RAM are close to XSX (let's say 2/3 or more) exactly to ensure that the only difference between both is the graphical output (mainly resolution) and that nothing else is hold back. Because for a lot of gamers that will use a 1080p TV the added cost for PS5 or XSX doesn't make sense because they don't care about the resolution.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Pemalite on 16 July 2020
goopy20 said:

Of course a high-end pc will always look better than consoles. But you have to admit that there's a big difference between modern pc ports, that were designed around the limitations of consoles, and the AAA pc exclusives we saw in the past and were completely impossible to run on consoles at all. Back in those days being part of the pc master race actually meant something. You had games like BF, Crysis, Half Life 2 etc. that looked 2 generations ahead of anything on consoles, and we were happy if we could run Crysis at all, never mind at 120fps.

Those games still exist. I.E. StarCitizen.

Every game that uses Ray Tracing looks substantially better on PC.

goopy20 said:

We will see with Lockhart and Series X but I find it hard to believe that the games will look any different on both consoles. Instead it'll probably just be like Xbox One S and Xbox One X. They play the exact same games, but the Xone X is the niche version for those who absolutely demand 4k and 60fps. If Lockhart will be half or a 3rd of the price, I'm sure MS knows which one will sell more as we can already see how 4 out of 5 consoles currently sold are the cheaper base models. This is why I feel developers will completely optimize overall visuals and resolution for Lockhart, and Series X will be kinda forced to "waste" those extra Tflops and RAM on just boosting resolution/ framerate and sprinkle in some extra effects.

A few assertions being thrown around here... We don't know what Lockharts specifications are, or if it will even release.

goopy20 said:

Imo that's also why the ps5 exclusives will stand out by a mile as they are not constrained by any platform. We will likely see a TLOU3 or GOW2 completely optimized for ps5 while targeting the exact same resolution and framerate as Lockhart. Those would easily be able to push the visuals way beyond what's technically possible on Lockhart. Maybe we won't see those games right at launch, but I wouldn't exactly count out HZW, though. GG are pretty damn good at raising the visual bar and HZW is the perfect ip to flex those next gen muscles.

Launch titles never fully flex the next-gen muscles.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

goopy20 on 16 July 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy: well the push for 4k/60-120 is a complete waste of next gen power! A console shouldn’t push for resolution and frame rate!

Also goopy: well a console that doesn’t push 4k60-120 from MS is also bad!

Based on all the talk from you these past months and how angry you say you have been about MS wasting power, seems to me that if the Lockhart is real, it is literally your wet dream of a console? Yet somehow you still have issue with it.

Nope, Series X was actually my wet dream when they first announced it. I thought it was amazing that they went with such high specs. At first it looked like Sony cheaped out a bit on the gpu because they wanted to keep the ps5 within the $399 price range and I expected Series X to be far more superior. Also quite a bit more expensive, but I would have been perfectly fine with. All they had to do is tell me it would have jaw dropping exclusives like any other console in history has had. The truth is, MS already had my money if it wasn't for the Phil Spencer interviews.

Series X sounded to good to be true and ever since they announced it there seems to be a catch. 12 Tflops beastly console but no exclusives for 2 years, being all consumer friendly and making sure everybody can play their games, no matter which console you own, the MAy event which was the most boring first look at "next gen" games in video gaming history, and now the whole 4 Tflops Lockhart thing that can do whatever Series X can, just not in 4k...

It's almost as if they don't want us to buy the damn thing lol.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 16 July 2020

LudicrousSpeed on 16 July 2020

What is two years from November 2019, goopy?



kirby007 on 16 July 2020

how did they already have your money if they dont accept preorders?



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.