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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

eva01beserk said:
Bonzinga said:

Not sure if its that simple Don.. From what I am hearing, the RT Tech in the XSX might make a bigger splash than the one in the PS5, and considering the XSX offers more powerful hardware across the board it might be more than just pixels and framerates, but maybe better lighting, shading and higher textures etc. The PS5 will offer quicker load times and faster draw distances however I am still in the "Wait and see" approach with the PS5's super hyped up SSD because from what we saw at the PS5 reveal, nothing looked like the XSX couldn't render better. But will "wait and see"

Im hearing the contrary then. People are saying that they dont know if the RT cores in the RDNA2 are tied to the compute unit or are separate. If they are tied to the CU then the XsX could see big improvements as it will have core RT cores and more CU's, but if its not the RT cores will be a fixed number that both consoles will have and clocked faster on the ps5 and will better performance. The XsX could use the extra compute power  for ray tracing but it wont outperform the dedicated RT cores. 

This. We don't know which way the RT cores will go in Big Navi. We need to wait on more detailing.

DonFerrari said:

Sure thing, RT could be proportional to the CU count, exactly the same for both consoles or PS could have more for all we know. That is something that will need more deep dives to be sure.

But if anyone have any source for the RT count on both consoles that would be great.

Anyway the UE5 demo didn't even use these cores on PS5 even though Epic said it was tailor made and optimized for PS5 for 6 months.

Could go in any direction.

AMD could make the RT cores a function of the amount of CU's. I.E. Like with the TMU's where you have 16 TMU's per CU.

Or AMD could just arbitrarily throw a huge number of them onto the silicon like 1024.

Or AMD could simply build out it's CU counts and add additional hardware to accelerate RT tasks on the current shader pipelines.

Although it's been stated "cores" implicitly prior, so it's likely one of the top two scenarios.

*****

As for Epic. They were never going to 100% optimize their engine for a technology demonstration on an engine that is unreleased and unfinished for a console that is unreleased and unfinished.
There is still performance and optimization left on the table.

I would have liked Epic to have leveraged the RT cores to bolster the global illumination in the demo for a real generational step forwards in lighting.



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DonFerrari said:

It looked scripted because?

If you believe in that then you'll probably see the console strained for memory since the availability of fast memmory on XSX is smaller than on PS5 (the small greater speed on the GPU portion of the memmory isn't that much higher and the quantity isn't also enough to cover) and that memmory will take longer to be fed by the SSD and when both combine you'll have less things being able to be streamed and show.

You are on the wait and see for PS5 but are already running with unseen games already having even better textures on Xbox..

With what the demo shown, what do you see the player do exactly when transitioning into each screen? His flying through them, not exactly exploring what's on the other side of the mountain or city building. It looked more like a interactive gameplay cutscene where we see him traveling to a pirate level. When we see Ratchet and Clank actually explore the levels to a greater extent rather than him just Star Fox his way through, than ill be raising my eye brows. 

Also next gen memory is interesting. I am going to assume you are referring to the Ram memory. If you are than keep this in mind. the XSX has 10gigs of faster Ram and 6 gigs slower than the PS5.. now also remember not all 16 gigs of Ram will be used in games. Expect next gen games to use around 8gigs to 12gigs while the rest of the Ram remains for the OS etc. So the XSX actually has more faster ram utilised for games than the PS5 since XSX's 10gigs is most likely the Ram usage of the next gen games while they might add another 2gigs from the pool if they need to hit 12. PS5's Ram wont catch up to the XSX 10gig Ram pool, maybe if all 16gigs of Ram might be utilised for games than the PS5 might average out but I highly doubt games will utilised 16gigs unless they have there own Ram pool for system memory separately. Also keep in mind the XSX also has faster bandwidth. Both systems are impressive but the edge in quality looks more like comparing high settings to Ultra settings. Some effects might look identical while Ultra will offer slightly better everything else. 

Pemalite said:
eva01beserk said:

Im hearing the contrary then. People are saying that they dont know if the RT cores in the RDNA2 are tied to the compute unit or are separate. If they are tied to the CU then the XsX could see big improvements as it will have core RT cores and more CU's, but if its not the RT cores will be a fixed number that both consoles will have and clocked faster on the ps5 and will better performance. The XsX could use the extra compute power  for ray tracing but it wont outperform the dedicated RT cores. 

This. We don't know which way the RT cores will go in Big Navi. We need to wait on more detailing.

Correct me if i am wrong here. From what I am hearing, is that the XSX is RT Accelerated where as the PS5 is hardware based. From my knowledge if its hardware accelerated.. doesn't it mean the GPU doesn't have to work as hard to implement the effect where as Hardware based requires a lot more resounces from the GPU to render. If thats true than wont that would be a massive GPU gain for the XSX since RT is one of, if not the most demanding effect out there.

I believe both Consoles will have similar RT cores however would it make any difference when it comes to Hardware or accelerated base RT?

Last edited by Bonzinga - on 17 June 2020

Bonzinga said:
Pemalite said:

This. We don't know which way the RT cores will go in Big Navi. We need to wait on more detailing.

Correct me if i am wrong here. From what I am hearing, is that the XSX is RT Accelerated where as the PS5 is hardware based. From my knowledge if its hardware accelerated.. doesn't it mean the GPU doesn't have to work as hard to implement the effect where as Hardware based requires a lot more resounces from the GPU to render. If thats true than wont that would be a massive GPU gain for the XSX since RT is one of, if not the most demanding effect out there.

I believe both Consoles will have similar RT cores however would it make any difference when it comes to Hardware or accelerated base RT?

From my understanding AMD has invented it's RT technology to be identical across all Navi GPU's... So PC, Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 should all be taking a similar implementation approach.

Just no details on what that approach is yet.

We are still on the cusp of what the most optimal approach to Ray Tracing is, so it's hard to say which approach is intrinsically "better" just yet.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Bonzinga said:
DonFerrari said:

It looked scripted because?

If you believe in that then you'll probably see the console strained for memory since the availability of fast memmory on XSX is smaller than on PS5 (the small greater speed on the GPU portion of the memmory isn't that much higher and the quantity isn't also enough to cover) and that memmory will take longer to be fed by the SSD and when both combine you'll have less things being able to be streamed and show.

You are on the wait and see for PS5 but are already running with unseen games already having even better textures on Xbox..

With what the demo shown, what do you see the player do exactly when transitioning into each screen? His flying through them, not exactly exploring what's on the other side of the mountain or city building. It looked more like a interactive gameplay cutscene where we see him traveling to a pirate level. When we see Ratchet and Clank actually explore the levels to a greater extent rather than him just Star Fox his way through, than ill be raising my eye brows. 

Also next gen memory is interesting. I am going to assume you are referring to the Ram memory. If you are than keep this in mind. the XSX has 10gigs of faster Ram and 6 gigs slower than the PS5.. now also remember not all 16 gigs of Ram will be used in games. Expect next gen games to use around 8gigs to 12gigs while the rest of the Ram remains for the OS etc. So the XSX actually has more faster ram utilised for games than the PS5 since XSX's 10gigs is most likely the Ram usage of the next gen games while they might add another 2gigs from the pool if they need to hit 12. PS5's Ram wont catch up to the XSX 10gig Ram pool, maybe if all 16gigs of Ram might be utilised for games than the PS5 might average out but I highly doubt games will utilised 16gigs unless they have there own Ram pool for system memory separately. Also keep in mind the XSX also has faster bandwidth. Both systems are impressive but the edge in quality looks more like comparing high settings to Ultra settings. Some effects might look identical while Ultra will offer slightly better everything else. 

Pemalite said:

This. We don't know which way the RT cores will go in Big Navi. We need to wait on more detailing.

Correct me if i am wrong here. From what I am hearing, is that the XSX is RT Accelerated where as the PS5 is hardware based. From my knowledge if its hardware accelerated.. doesn't it mean the GPU doesn't have to work as hard to implement the effect where as Hardware based requires a lot more resounces from the GPU to render. If thats true than wont that would be a massive GPU gain for the XSX since RT is one of, if not the most demanding effect out there.

I believe both Consoles will have similar RT cores however would it make any difference when it comes to Hardware or accelerated base RT?

I think theres some confusion. RT accelerated or hardware accelerated? I think you are refering to the same thing. Hardware accelerated means that It has specific dedicated units to do certain task, in this case is the RT cores. Might not be how AMD calls it but Nvidia calls them RT cores. Both consoles are confirmed to have dedicated units for raytracing so they wont fully rely on the compute as much.

Now the ram is tricky cuz games tend to split available ram for games. like current gen, if they had 4gb free, they would use 2gb for what you are seing and interacting while the other 2 was meant for reserve so when a change hapened you jump to it then erase what is not in use and load new data while using the otheer 2gb. Thats where SSD's come in. Now that data transfer is gona be much faster so if the new consoles have 12gb available, they dont need to use 6gb and have 6gb for preloaded assets. And then comes in sony with its solution wich they claim is so much faster that they dont need any reserve ram as they can stream anything as needed. While we dont have anything confirmed and we can go with it and say its gona happen but the xbox canot do it, then sony could be using a full 12gb for the game and ms could be using  less maybe 6-8gb just to say a number as nothing is concrete yet. 



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Bonzinga said:
DonFerrari said:

It looked scripted because?

If you believe in that then you'll probably see the console strained for memory since the availability of fast memmory on XSX is smaller than on PS5 (the small greater speed on the GPU portion of the memmory isn't that much higher and the quantity isn't also enough to cover) and that memmory will take longer to be fed by the SSD and when both combine you'll have less things being able to be streamed and show.

You are on the wait and see for PS5 but are already running with unseen games already having even better textures on Xbox..

With what the demo shown, what do you see the player do exactly when transitioning into each screen? His flying through them, not exactly exploring what's on the other side of the mountain or city building. It looked more like a interactive gameplay cutscene where we see him traveling to a pirate level. When we see Ratchet and Clank actually explore the levels to a greater extent rather than him just Star Fox his way through, than ill be raising my eye brows. 

So it is just that your feeling, great. Because we have see he fighting in several different areas with different things happening.

Also next gen memory is interesting. I am going to assume you are referring to the Ram memory. If you are than keep this in mind. the XSX has 10gigs of faster Ram and 6 gigs slower than the PS5.. now also remember not all 16 gigs of Ram will be used in games. Expect next gen games to use around 8gigs to 12gigs while the rest of the Ram remains for the OS etc. So the XSX actually has more faster ram utilised for games than the PS5 since XSX's 10gigs is most likely the Ram usage of the next gen games while they might add another 2gigs from the pool if they need to hit 12. PS5's Ram wont catch up to the XSX 10gig Ram pool, maybe if all 16gigs of Ram might be utilised for games than the PS5 might average out but I highly doubt games will utilised 16gigs unless they have there own Ram pool for system memory separately. Also keep in mind the XSX also has faster bandwidth. Both systems are impressive but the edge in quality looks more like comparing high settings to Ultra settings. Some effects might look identical while Ultra will offer slightly better everything else. 

You are quite wrong here, MS already put some presentation that OS will reserve 2Gb of RAM. So you'll have 4Gb of lower RAM and 10Gb of faster RAM used by XSX on gaming, which shouldn't be a problem since not everything in the RAM need to be swapped/filled/etc at the same speed. The slightly faster RAM on the XSX matches the slightly faster GPU, but you just jumped through the problem of slower SSD and not enough bandwidht to have everything better than PS5 (which by the way contradicts what most analysts, game devs and whatnot say). Again it is expected that XSX have more pixels rendered natively at a more stable/higher framerate while PS5 load faster and have better textures. Lightning is still unknow due to RT portion being not fully disclosed yet. Geometry is also a point of contention, XSX GPU could process more, but PS5 can feed more.

Pemalite said:

This. We don't know which way the RT cores will go in Big Navi. We need to wait on more detailing.

Correct me if i am wrong here. From what I am hearing, is that the XSX is RT Accelerated where as the PS5 is hardware based. From my knowledge if its hardware accelerated.. doesn't it mean the GPU doesn't have to work as hard to implement the effect where as Hardware based requires a lot more resounces from the GPU to render. If thats true than wont that would be a massive GPU gain for the XSX since RT is one of, if not the most demanding effect out there.

I believe both Consoles will have similar RT cores however would it make any difference when it comes to Hardware or accelerated base RT?



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eva01beserk said:

I think theres some confusion. RT accelerated or hardware accelerated? I think you are refering to the same thing. Hardware accelerated means that It has specific dedicated units to do certain task, in this case is the RT cores. Might not be how AMD calls it but Nvidia calls them RT cores. Both consoles are confirmed to have dedicated units for raytracing so they wont fully rely on the compute as much.

Now the ram is tricky cuz games tend to split available ram for games. like current gen, if they had 4gb free, they would use 2gb for what you are seing and interacting while the other 2 was meant for reserve so when a change hapened you jump to it then erase what is not in use and load new data while using the otheer 2gb. Thats where SSD's come in. Now that data transfer is gona be much faster so if the new consoles have 12gb available, they dont need to use 6gb and have 6gb for preloaded assets. And then comes in sony with its solution wich they claim is so much faster that they dont need any reserve ram as they can stream anything as needed. While we dont have anything confirmed and we can go with it and say its gona happen but the xbox canot do it, then sony could be using a full 12gb for the game and ms could be using  less maybe 6-8gb just to say a number as nothing is concrete yet. 

I am only going with what's stated in the marketing. Xbox claims Hardware Accelerated while Sony claims Hardware-Based. As seen Below.