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Forums - Gaming - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

kirby007 on 14 June 2020
Immersiveunreality said:

Can someone explain to me why SSD's keep having a high price for such a lengthy period,the progress of this technology seems slower than what happened with HDD right?

I'm curious about the resources,royalties,patents,productioncycle.

because SSD tech has barely started like mainstream 5-10 years ago so the production plants, R&D and materials needs to be recouped, while the HDD tech has been recouped 30 years ago

HDDS are ancient really really ancient



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Immersiveunreality on 14 June 2020
kirby007 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Can someone explain to me why SSD's keep having a high price for such a lengthy period,the progress of this technology seems slower than what happened with HDD right?

I'm curious about the resources,royalties,patents,productioncycle.

because SSD tech has barely started like mainstream 5-10 years ago so the production plants, R&D and materials needs to be recouped, while the HDD tech has been recouped 30 years ago

HDDS are ancient really really ancient

Alright seems it was my own misconception making me believe in a big difference of progress between these two technologies.

Thanks!



goopy20 on 14 June 2020
eva01beserk said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Of course it’s a game changer in the sense that it will change a lot of things about next gen games. However it’s not a game changer in the sense that a lot of PS fans on the internets have been hyping it up to be. 

Game changer yes. PS5 secret sauce, well, clearly not in the games they showcased.

So basicly its a game changer, but only to the exxtend the xsx can handle. Any extra juice after that is waste potential? This aparantly will be one of thouse ocassion where extra power does not scale right? 

I could see why you wherent ipressed with ratchet and clank, but I would recomend you look outside your buble and catch up what people are saying online. Everyone seems to be amazed at the near instant ttransitions from the warping. and lets say the xsx was attempting the same game, if that little purple tunel was the hidden loading screen and i took the ps5 like 1s to switch, how fast do you think the xsx make the transition?

Totally agree. I have no doubt that anything possible on Sony SSD's would be technically possible on Series X or a "normal" pc SSD too. But if there would be a 3 second purple loading tunnel, instead of 1, it would break the whole effect. If a multiplatform game takes 100% advantage of the ps5's io speed, it simply means developers would still need to use tricks (even though less noticeable than on current gen) to run it on Series X with less than half the throughput. Therefore, we'll probably see games being more seamless and fluid on ps5, while we could also see a bit better ray tracing and gpu releated stuff on Series X.

However, with ps5 exclusives developers can build their whole game around the ps5's SSD speed and do things that probably wouldn't work on Series X. Ratchet & Clank is just an early example but if it had 3 second loading times in the purple tunnel, Imsoniac probably wouldn't have made the portal jumping a core gameplay mechanic or scratched the idea all together.



kirby007 on 14 June 2020
goopy20 said:
eva01beserk said:

So basicly its a game changer, but only to the exxtend the xsx can handle. Any extra juice after that is waste potential? This aparantly will be one of thouse ocassion where extra power does not scale right? 

I could see why you wherent ipressed with ratchet and clank, but I would recomend you look outside your buble and catch up what people are saying online. Everyone seems to be amazed at the near instant ttransitions from the warping. and lets say the xsx was attempting the same game, if that little purple tunel was the hidden loading screen and i took the ps5 like 1s to switch, how fast do you think the xsx make the transition?

Totally agree. I have no doubt that anything possible on Sony SSD's would be technically possible on Series X or a "normal" pc SSD too. But if there would be a 3 second purple loading tunnel, instead of 1, it would break the whole effect. If a multiplatform game takes 100% advantage of the ps5's io speed, it simply means developers would still need to use tricks (even though less noticeable than on current gen) to run it on Series X with less than half the throughput. Therefore, we'll probably see games being more seamless and fluid on ps5, while we could also see a bit better ray tracing and gpu releated stuff on Series X.

However, with ps5 exclusives developers can build their whole game around the ps5's SSD speed and do things that probably wouldn't work on Series X. Ratchet & Clank is just an early example but if it had 3 second loading times in the purple tunnel, Imsoniac probably wouldn't have made the portal jumping a core gameplay mechanic or scratched the idea all together.

the thing is switching between realms like shown in R&C felt like a cutscene vs the blinking on the battlefield while fighting which you could do at any point in time



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

goopy20 on 14 June 2020
kirby007 said:
goopy20 said:

Totally agree. I have no doubt that anything possible on Sony SSD's would be technically possible on Series X or a "normal" pc SSD too. But if there would be a 3 second purple loading tunnel, instead of 1, it would break the whole effect. If a multiplatform game takes 100% advantage of the ps5's io speed, it simply means developers would still need to use tricks (even though less noticeable than on current gen) to run it on Series X with less than half the throughput. Therefore, we'll probably see games being more seamless and fluid on ps5, while we could also see a bit better ray tracing and gpu releated stuff on Series X.

However, with ps5 exclusives developers can build their whole game around the ps5's SSD speed and do things that probably wouldn't work on Series X. Ratchet & Clank is just an early example but if it had 3 second loading times in the purple tunnel, Imsoniac probably wouldn't have made the portal jumping a core gameplay mechanic or scratched the idea all together.

the thing is switching between realms like shown in R&C felt like a cutscene vs the blinking on the battlefield while fighting which you could do at any point in time

That's true but it weren't cutscenes, though. You were still in control of the character when it was looping through those portals. It does feel like a bit of a tech-demo to show off the SSD and we'll see if it actually makes the game better. But it sure looked pretty cool, and I'm sure we'll see much more meaningful applications of Sony SSD tech later on in their exclusives.



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kirby007 on 14 June 2020
goopy20 said:
kirby007 said:

the thing is switching between realms like shown in R&C felt like a cutscene vs the blinking on the battlefield while fighting which you could do at any point in time

That's true but it weren't cutscenes, though. You were still in control of the character when it was looping through those portals. It does feel like a bit of a tech-demo to show off the SSD and we'll see if it actually makes the game better. But it sure looked pretty cool, and I'm sure we'll see much more meaningful applications of Sony SSD tech later on in their exclusives.

yes but the timing is fixed, its less impressive then the battlefield jumps imo



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

LudicrousSpeed on 14 June 2020
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

It brought enemies onto the screen, changed the visuals, and the layout of the world you were in. And it happened very fast. Personally I don’t really care if you’re transported to a whole new world if you don’t interact with it. Most of the dimension jumping in the event was on rails and seemed set up to play out that way. Now maybe in the final game you can jump whenever you want and fully explore everything, who knows. 

It was impressive but it was impressive because the PS5 annihilates the PS4 in all specs, not because of the SSD. Considering the context of this thread, it wasn’t a telling reveal for the PS5. I mean, what, in one PS5 game launching who knows when, maybe you’d have a second longer blue transition screen on XSX, maybe it would be just as fast? What a gargantuan difference.

Warping or seamless transitions between outdoor and indoor locations isn't entirely new. Hell, Far Cry from 2004 did that already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEJCxWqqmA. Its instantly loading such rich assets and geometry, that's something we haven't seen before. Not all the games they showed used the SSD for warping. HZD 2's underwater part, for example, looked pretty insane. On current gen that would have been a separate level with a loading screen, but with HZD 2 I'm assuming it's a completely seamless transition.

So lets say Guerilla wants people to be able to fly a giant robotic chicken, jump in the water from mid-air, zip through the water on the back of a robot crocodile and then visit highly detailed underwater caves/ levels, they probably can pull that off seamlessly thanks to the SSD tech. Like Sony's been telling us, the whole point of their SSD stuff is to allow richer world design and to revolutionize how we move around in them. Will Series X also be able to do it? Who knows, but we already have a MS exec talking about elevators...

These were just some early titles but just imagine what developers will be doing with it later on? Seamless worlds can truly be a game changer and I can think of only Star Citizen to give us an idea of what it'll mean later on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5y2s3jSBrI 

 

Why would the XSX not be able to do it? This is where the secret sauce aspect of the SSD comes into play. You should read up on the Velocity Architecture. Sony isn't the only one who engineered a console to be extremely fast. Also even on PS360 you had games like Just Cause 2 where you could load a huge open world game with no additional loading required, fly a plane all around, dive in the water and explore. What you're describing in a potential HFW scenario is nothing new gameplay wise, it will just look prettier because the PS5 has much better specs than those consoles.

Also I don't understand why you'd even be impressed with HFW as it wasn't gameplay and you were certainly negative towards any non gameplay element of the Microsoft video.

eva01beserk said:
if that little purple tunel was the hidden loading screen and i took the ps5 like 1s to switch, how fast do you think the xsx make the transition?



LudicrousSpeed on 14 June 2020
goopy20 said:
kirby007 said:

the thing is switching between realms like shown in R&C felt like a cutscene vs the blinking on the battlefield while fighting which you could do at any point in time

That's true but it weren't cutscenes, though. You were still in control of the character when it was looping through those portals. It does feel like a bit of a tech-demo to show off the SSD and we'll see if it actually makes the game better. But it sure looked pretty cool, and I'm sure we'll see much more meaningful applications of Sony SSD tech later on in their exclusives.

In some of the transitions they had a very small sense of control but were still on a set path. In others they had no control. It seemed very much like a scripted sequence of dimension shifting. Again maybe in the final game you can jump whenever and have more control, who knows. And LOL @ the idea that a 3 second blue screen would "break the whole effect". You're talking one or two more seconds, if any. Wow.



DonFerrari on 14 June 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
DonFerrari said:

Go back and look the example you gave on Soul Reaver.

It was a very simple distortion of polygon and change of color palette. It wasn`t transporting you to a whole different world in less than 1s.

It brought enemies onto the screen, changed the visuals, and the layout of the world you were in. And it happened very fast. Personally I don’t really care if you’re transported to a whole new world if you don’t interact with it. Most of the dimension jumping in the event was on rails and seemed set up to play out that way. Now maybe in the final game you can jump whenever you want and fully explore everything, who knows. 

It was impressive but it was impressive because the PS5 annihilates the PS4 in all specs, not because of the SSD. Considering the context of this thread, it wasn’t a telling reveal for the PS5. I mean, what, in one PS5 game launching who knows when, maybe you’d have a second longer blue transition screen on XSX, maybe it would be just as fast? What a gargantuan difference.

It took like 10 seconds, but sure since it was smooth and there was no loading screen we were trully impressed at the time.

In R&C case you interacted with the world. You were battling in one area and the warp portals could bring new enemies, suck people on your dimension or be used by you if you close in fast enough to be transported to that world and there in couple seconds you arrive to that new world and start interacting and fighting as soon as arrived.

Of course you won't be able to jump to all the worlds in all the worlds as that could potentially just make you go from the first world to the last one in a couple of minutes and finish the game. There will be some sort of direction on that it isn't an open world game to explore I imagine (well they could make it like that and you have to keep jumping around to find where you need to go to keep advancing).

KratosLives said:
But with the extra gpu power on the series x, can't they use the spare resources to make up for the smaller ssd. Considering you got mesh shader technology aswel for larger worlds. Or does gpu have nothing to do with loading in more detailed worlds?

Not really. The same way PS5 can't use the better SSD to do calculations the GPU/CPU do (it can at most alleviate the burden by using the streaming to need less calculation) the better CPU//GPU on XSX can't do streaming of the data (but again it can accept a lower streaming and do more calculation to offset).

Immersiveunreality said:

Can someone explain to me why SSD's keep having a high price for such a lengthy period,the progress of this technology seems slower than what happened with HDD right?

I'm curious about the resources,royalties,patents,productioncycle.

Probably because of the type of memmory, just like RAM isn't increasing at the same pace anymore, it is costly and the demand is high since almost all markets needs it.



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eva01beserk on 14 June 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

Warping or seamless transitions between outdoor and indoor locations isn't entirely new. Hell, Far Cry from 2004 did that already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEJCxWqqmA. Its instantly loading such rich assets and geometry, that's something we haven't seen before. Not all the games they showed used the SSD for warping. HZD 2's underwater part, for example, looked pretty insane. On current gen that would have been a separate level with a loading screen, but with HZD 2 I'm assuming it's a completely seamless transition.

So lets say Guerilla wants people to be able to fly a giant robotic chicken, jump in the water from mid-air, zip through the water on the back of a robot crocodile and then visit highly detailed underwater caves/ levels, they probably can pull that off seamlessly thanks to the SSD tech. Like Sony's been telling us, the whole point of their SSD stuff is to allow richer world design and to revolutionize how we move around in them. Will Series X also be able to do it? Who knows, but we already have a MS exec talking about elevators...

These were just some early titles but just imagine what developers will be doing with it later on? Seamless worlds can truly be a game changer and I can think of only Star Citizen to give us an idea of what it'll mean later on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5y2s3jSBrI 

 

Why would the XSX not be able to do it? This is where the secret sauce aspect of the SSD comes into play. You should read up on the Velocity Architecture. Sony isn't the only one who engineered a console to be extremely fast. Also even on PS360 you had games like Just Cause 2 where you could load a huge open world game with no additional loading required, fly a plane all around, dive in the water and explore. What you're describing in a potential HFW scenario is nothing new gameplay wise, it will just look prettier because the PS5 has much better specs than those consoles.

Also I don't understand why you'd even be impressed with HFW as it wasn't gameplay and you were certainly negative towards any non gameplay element of the Microsoft video.

Where'nt you one that claimed all day and night about scaling being a thing on pc? Now you have a feature that at best will need to be scaled down considerably to work on different platforms and suddenly for you scaling is no longer a thing? Be ready then, cuz you are about to see a lot of innovation like this and while nothing is new, it will be done in such a scale on ps5 that it will brake the notion of how things where done before. Then you will see it on xsx scaled down by either lower texture quality, objects on screen, very lengthy transitions compared to ps5, and on very few cases you will see devs just not allow certain features cuz they would brake immersion by making all theese cuts.

eva01beserk said:
if that little purple tunel was the hidden loading screen and i took the ps5 like 1s to switch, how fast do you think the xsx make the transition?

Exactly. Yet you claim it would be no issue on xsx and it wont brake immersion. I really believe you have 2 ways going forward in these type of debates. 1 keep arguing that the faster i/o on ps5 wont be a big game changer. or 2. keep arguing that the xsx will do what the ps5 can do. Those are 2 debates that cannot be consolidated. 



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