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Forums - Microsoft - Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next Gen System

SvennoJ said:
d21lewis said:

Gamers: "I didn't buy a PS4 to play old games."

Also gamers in 2014: "TLoU remastered is the best game on PS4!"


Google it.

And Switch gamers, YOU BETTER NOT have anything negative to say about cross gen titles...

Great games are great games. I double dipped on TloU, would have even if it ran with BC

So let's look at the tentpole enhancements as Naughty Dog has outlined them. Principally, we're looking at 1080p resolution at 60fps in both single and multi-player, a 4x detail increase to texture maps and a 2x resolution boost to shadow maps. Texture streaming is no longer required owing to the PS4's prodigious RAM, and there's longer draw distances, better LOD and improved particle effects. In essence, Naughty Dog has scaled up the original game to full HD and boosted assets to match, while doubling frame-rate.

You think you get all that from BC?

I assume that you have never taken the time to take a look into the BC X1 enhanced titles.



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DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

You can’t deny facts because “well I played it so that can’t be true”. Me saying it had a lower meta wasn’t even the point but you chose to fixate on that? As I said before, the sales of the game were nothing compared to what people were playing. Best versions of cross gen titles. People bought the PS4 for the future investment and the play the best versions of multiplats. KZ selling over 1 million before it went bargain bin tells me PS gamers didn’t care so much for the exclusives at launch. 

Edit: Compare that to the sales of LOU Remastered and all becomes clear. 

Yes several bought for future investment, and BC isn't future but past.

And how would I deny that most people bougth crossgen games if there weren't many exclusives on launch?

Well good, glad we agree. I’m eager to see buying trends this launch for both consoles 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

SvennoJ said:
d21lewis said:

Gamers: "I didn't buy a PS4 to play old games."

Also gamers in 2014: "TLoU remastered is the best game on PS4!"


Google it.

And Switch gamers, YOU BETTER NOT have anything negative to say about cross gen titles...

Great games are great games. I double dipped on TloU, would have even if it ran with BC

So let's look at the tentpole enhancements as Naughty Dog has outlined them. Principally, we're looking at 1080p resolution at 60fps in both single and multi-player, a 4x detail increase to texture maps and a 2x resolution boost to shadow maps. Texture streaming is no longer required owing to the PS4's prodigious RAM, and there's longer draw distances, better LOD and improved particle effects. In essence, Naughty Dog has scaled up the original game to full HD and boosted assets to match, while doubling frame-rate.

You think you get all that from BC?

What's clear is that Naughty Dog has completely re-rendered each cut-scene though - they would have been 30fps on PS3 to match the gameplay, and they're running at 60 here, with compression artefacts only really a noticeable problem on very dark scenes.

The added photo mode and other extras were also a lot of fun to play with.

Plus you had the choice to either play with sharp shadows in 30fps or 60fps for smoother gameplay. (Personally I preferred better shadows at 30fps for immersion)

Naughty dog could have done more, they could also have done a lot less. Still, I didn't buy the ps4 to play Tlou again. When the remaster came out, I didn't mind playing the enhanced version again. Ironically, BC has never enticed me to buy games I have not played yet, only to replay games I had already played out of nostalgia sake. The only remaster I have bought that I had not played yet was the Sly Cooper trilogy on ps3. Zero games bought I hadn't played yet to play in BC mode on any console. (Well technically I did. I played FF12 on ps3 when it came out, regretted it when the virtual memory card corrupted before I could finish the game. The only reason to play on ps3 was that I had not started the game yet)

That’s all well and good but fact is LOU remake was the highest selling exclusive until Uncharted 4 in 2016. By a landslide...Bloodborne, Drive Club, The Order, Infamous SS didn’t come close. I’m sure there’s more but forgive me my off hand knowledge of competition exclusives is rusty.

That tells me quite a lot between what PS fans say on the internet and actual buying habits (next gen exclusives vs cross gen). 

Last edited by sales2099 - on 04 June 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

By the way, many of the switch games of 2017 were exclusive titles.

Splatoon 2
ARMS
Xenoblade 2
Mario Odyssey
Mario Rabbits
Fire Emblem Musou
Snipper Cripps

BOTW and Mario Kart 8DX are a few exceptions.
There are no cross-gen games with WiiU in 2018.

If you think MS's cross-gen policy will be similar to the success of the switch.



Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

I don't know why it is so hard to Pug to get it (and need to pretend I miss the point), BC is certainly a lot of value to some customers and no value to others (and as long as it doesn't add significant cost sure it is a good thing to have) it still doesn't move sales. He tried to use "evidence" from BC on X1 and when shut down he complained that I was using sales because I was butthurt about the BC on X1 and on XSX, even if I have praised it as probably being much better than the one on PS5.

Let's try to debate the topics that are presented in a post rather than take a jab at someone, cheers.

SvennoJ said:

Great games are great games. I double dipped on TloU, would have even if it ran with BC

So let's look at the tentpole enhancements as Naughty Dog has outlined them. Principally, we're looking at 1080p resolution at 60fps in both single and multi-player, a 4x detail increase to texture maps and a 2x resolution boost to shadow maps. Texture streaming is no longer required owing to the PS4's prodigious RAM, and there's longer draw distances, better LOD and improved particle effects. In essence, Naughty Dog has scaled up the original game to full HD and boosted assets to match, while doubling frame-rate.

You think you get all that from BC?



Skip to 7 minutes.

Digital Foundry:
"Improved Textures, Higher Level of Geometry and better shadow map quality as well"

Backwards Compat can do more than people think.




4x detail increase to texture maps

BC magically adds higher res textures? All those changes need extra data and/or coding interventions.

Again, the back-compat team play with render targets and level of detail settings - higher resolution textures and shadow maps are presented in most scenes and even geometry LODs seem to be pushed out and improved for a richer scene.

Human intervention, it's a patch, remaster all but in name. Most games don't have those options and it will still take human tinkering on a per title basis to reach those kind of results. It's not BC, it's a free update basically. Great, and likely the effort was made back in extra sales of DLC and digital copies. But it's not really BC, as in sticking the original disc in without downloading anything from the internet.



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sales2099 said:

That’s all well and good but fact is LOU remake was the highest selling exclusive until Uncharted 4 in 2016. By a landslide...Bloodborne, Drive Club, The Order, Infamous SS didn’t come close. I’m sure there’s more but forgive me my off hand knowledge of competition exclusives is rusty.

That tells me quite a lot between what PS fans say on the internet and actual buying habits (next gen exclusives vs cross gen). 

The last of us released in June, ps4 released in November, ps4 version was confirmed in April. Perhaps people simply waited to play it on the ps4, just like I waited with GTA5 and will wait with Cyberpunk. Does that make me the intended audience for BC or for cross-gen releases :)



SvennoJ said:
Pemalite said:

Let's try to debate the topics that are presented in a post rather than take a jab at someone, cheers.



Skip to 7 minutes.

Digital Foundry:
"Improved Textures, Higher Level of Geometry and better shadow map quality as well"

Backwards Compat can do more than people think.




4x detail increase to texture maps

BC magically adds higher res textures? All those changes need extra data and/or coding interventions.

Again, the back-compat team play with render targets and level of detail settings - higher resolution textures and shadow maps are presented in most scenes and even geometry LODs seem to be pushed out and improved for a richer scene.

Human intervention, it's a patch, remaster all but in name. Most games don't have those options and it will still take human tinkering on a per title basis to reach those kind of results. It's not BC, it's a free update basically. Great, and likely the effort was made back in extra sales of DLC and digital copies. But it's not really BC, as in sticking the original disc in without downloading anything from the internet.

It allows for better streaming so the higher quality assets are guaranteed to be loaded in.

Microsoft has taken an approach of "tweaking" it's emulation on a per-game basis anyway, it's just an extra step to fine tune for Xbox One X enhanced backwards compat.

It is certainly backwards compat.

PC Emulation tends to enhance base games as well with better post-process, filtering and anti-aliasing plus other enhancements.

Obviously you can take it further with higher resolution texture maps by injecting them into the game whilst emulating.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Even though I understand the reasoning behind it, I still think it's a terrible idea to hang your hat on cross-gen and compatibility alone, when launching a next gen console. We all know what these smart delivery games will look like. We've been seeing it on pc for decades. Sure, Gears 5 on ultra settings does look a helluva lot better than the base Xbox One version, but it's essentially still the exact same game. It has the same ai, level design, physics, assets variation etc. no matter which version you're playing.

The whole point of Sony's UE5 presentation was to demonstrate how the SSD opens up possibilities for a complete shift in core level design. Smart delivery games simply can't take full advantage of that until MS finally ditches support for the Xone 2 years later. Even then we don't know what kind of pc specs they will be supporting, though. I mean will the pc version of Gears 6 really require a RTX2080 and a super fast SSD, or will it also run on more common gpu's like the GTX1060 and "normal" SSD's? Because if it's the later, those games will also not be able to take full advantage of the Series X's hardware.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 05 June 2020

SvennoJ said:
d21lewis said:

Gamers: "I didn't buy a PS4 to play old games."

Also gamers in 2014: "TLoU remastered is the best game on PS4!"


Google it.

And Switch gamers, YOU BETTER NOT have anything negative to say about cross gen titles...

Great games are great games. I double dipped on TloU, would have even if it ran with BC

So let's look at the tentpole enhancements as Naughty Dog has outlined them. Principally, we're looking at 1080p resolution at 60fps in both single and multi-player, a 4x detail increase to texture maps and a 2x resolution boost to shadow maps. Texture streaming is no longer required owing to the PS4's prodigious RAM, and there's longer draw distances, better LOD and improved particle effects. In essence, Naughty Dog has scaled up the original game to full HD and boosted assets to match, while doubling frame-rate.

You think you get all that from BC?

What's clear is that Naughty Dog has completely re-rendered each cut-scene though - they would have been 30fps on PS3 to match the gameplay, and they're running at 60 here, with compression artefacts only really a noticeable problem on very dark scenes.

The added photo mode and other extras were also a lot of fun to play with.

Plus you had the choice to either play with sharp shadows in 30fps or 60fps for smoother gameplay. (Personally I preferred better shadows at 30fps for immersion)

Naughty dog could have done more, they could also have done a lot less. Still, I didn't buy the ps4 to play Tlou again. When the remaster came out, I didn't mind playing the enhanced version again. Ironically, BC has never enticed me to buy games I have not played yet, only to replay games I had already played out of nostalgia sake. The only remaster I have bought that I had not played yet was the Sly Cooper trilogy on ps3. Zero games bought I hadn't played yet to play in BC mode on any console. (Well technically I did. I played FF12 on ps3 when it came out, regretted it when the virtual memory card corrupted before I could finish the game. The only reason to play on ps3 was that I had not started the game yet)

Hey, I double dipped, too. Triple dipped, actually. Every disc based game I bought early in the life of my PS4, I bought again digitally. I only had a 1080p TV at the time but I remember switching back and forth between the PS3 input and PS4 input comparing both versions. Turning the 60fps option on and off and, in the end not noticing much (if any) difference at all. The only huge difference was that this time, I decided to finish the game--which I enjoyed immensely.

Hell, the game I bought along side my PS4 (which I purchased months before buying an Xbox One) was Tomb Raider DE. I wanted a PS4 but none of the games up until that point was enough to make me buy one.

I'll likely buy a PS5 and XSX early on, as as they offer NEW games that impress me or are a decent enough improvement over what my Xbox One X and PS4 Pro have to offer. I just hate the downplaying of "cross gen" titles when such a huge percentage of my 8th gen library are just ports of 7th gen games I already owned. Like you said, a great game is a great game.



goopy20 said:

Even though I understand the reasoning behind it, I still think it's a terrible idea to hang your hat on cross-gen and compatibility alone, when launching a next gen console. We all know what these smart delivery games will look like. We've been seeing it on pc for decades. Sure, Gears 5 on ultra settings does look a helluva lot better than the base Xbox One version, but it's essentially still the exact same game. It has the same ai, level design, physics, assets variation etc. no matter which version you're playing.

The whole point of Sony's UE5 presentation was to demonstrate how the SSD opens up possibilities for a complete shift in core level design. Smart delivery games simply can't take full advantage of that until MS finally ditches support for the Xone 2 years later. Even then we don't know what kind of pc specs they will be supporting, though. I mean will the pc version of Gears 6 really require a RTX2080 and a super fast SSD, or will it also run on more common gpu's like the GTX1060 and "normal" SSD's? Because if it's the later, those games will also not be able to take full advantage of the Series X's hardware.

An RTX 2080 in 2 years time will be 4 years old. It will be old and out dated. - It might even be superior to the Xbox Series X.

Consequently the Geforce GTX 1060 will be 6 years old. - How long are cross-platform developers required to support old PC technology? Let alone mid-range or low-end parts?

Fact of the matter is, game engines are scalable, they can scale level design, physics, number of A.I characters and so forth... We saw this last generation when the PC build of frostbite games looked and played a generation ahead of the outgoing Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 consoles.





www.youtube.com/@Pemalite