Forums - Sony Discussion - Unreal Engine 5 Announced + PS5 Demo

Captain_Yuri said:
twintail said:

I don't think it's silly that a dev would go PS5 only. 

We've seen it happen countless times this gen, and I'm sure it'll continue into next. That said, there is definitely a difference between building you game to require the PS5 SSD to actually function, and using the PS5 SSD to just enhance the overall experience.

The latter could very easily happen with a lot of multiplatform games without requiring a lot of effort on the devs part. But I stress 'could' because of course I don't actually know how devs are finding development atm. 

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

The GPU shouldn't hold it back, because that is the whole point of the SSDs and vastly improved I/O — to be less reliant on them. That's not really speculation if you watched and understood Cerny. That's one of the reasons he was so dismissive of the teraflop talk. 

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 05 June 2020

                                                                                                             

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CGI-Quality said:
Captain_Yuri said:

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

The GPU shouldn't hold it back, because that is the whole point of the SSDs and vastly improved I/O — to be less reliant on them. That's not really speculation if you watched and understood Cerny. That's one of the reasons he was so dismissive of the teraflop talk. 

Pretty sure everything is speculation until we see the games actually come out and people have put this into practice... I am sure he had more than one reason as to why he was dismissive of the teraflop talk...

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 05 June 2020

             

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Captain_Yuri said:
CGI-Quality said:

The GPU shouldn't hold it back, because that is the whole point of the SSDs and vastly improved I/O — to be less reliant on them. That's not really speculation if you watched and understood Cerny. That's one of the reasons he was so dismissive of the teraflop talk. 

Pretty sure everything is speculation until we see the games actually come out and people have put this into practice... I am sure he had more than one reason as to why he was dismissive of the teraflop talk...

Yeah, hence why I said "That's one of the reasons he was so dismissive of the teraflop talk." I see you missed the edit, but that was one reason. No matter the additional reason(s), the one I brought up is one of them.

As for speculation, you can be skeptical. That's fine. I'm less so because I have a better idea of what is coming and what they will be using to achieve such results.

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 05 June 2020

                                                                                                             

CGI-Quality said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Pretty sure everything is speculation until we see the games actually come out and people have put this into practice... I am sure he had more than one reason as to why he was dismissive of the teraflop talk...

Yeah, hence why I said "That's one of the reasons he was so dismissive of the teraflop talk." I see you missed the edit, but that was one reason. No matter the additional reason(s), the one I brought up is one of them.

As for speculation, you can be skeptical. That's fine. I'm less so because I have a better idea of what is coming and what they will be using to achieve such results.

Sounds good to me. We will see how it goes...



             

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Captain_Yuri said:
twintail said:

I don't think it's silly that a dev would go PS5 only. 

We've seen it happen countless times this gen, and I'm sure it'll continue into next. That said, there is definitely a difference between building you game to require the PS5 SSD to actually function, and using the PS5 SSD to just enhance the overall experience.

The latter could very easily happen with a lot of multiplatform games without requiring a lot of effort on the devs part. But I stress 'could' because of course I don't actually know how devs are finding development atm. 

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

What I'm finding most fascinating about all of this is that, before the new consoles specs were revealed, just about everybody was putting the blame on the old Jaguar CPUs for the 8th gen's bottleneck, and for the life of me I don't remember anyone even mentioning storage as the culprit. Now all of a sudden the SSD is the only thing that matters.

And yes, I understand that higher SSD speeds will allow to stream more data faster, but that data needs to be processed in the first place. You can have all the storage speed and memory bandwith in the world, but if the CPU and GPU cannot keep up, you're just going to end up with a waste of bandwith.



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chakkra said:
Captain_Yuri said:

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

What I'm finding most fascinating about all of this is that, before the new consoles specs were revealed, just about everybody was putting the blame on the old Jaguar CPUs for the 8th gen's bottleneck, and for the life of me I don't remember anyone even mentioning storage as the culprit. Now all of a sudden the SSD is the only thing that matters.

And yes, I understand that higher SSD speeds will allow to stream more data faster, but that data needs to be processed in the first place. You can have all the storage speed and memory bandwith in the world, but if the CPU and GPU cannot keep up, you're just going to end up with a waste of bandwith.

Lol you do bring up a good point. I forgot about those Jag cores and yea, those were super shit. Thank god for Zen!



             

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chakkra said:

What I'm finding most fascinating about all of this is that, before the new consoles specs were revealed, just about everybody was putting the blame on the old Jaguar CPUs for the 8th gen's bottleneck, and for the life of me I don't remember anyone even mentioning storage as the culprit. Now all of a sudden the SSD is the only thing that matters.

And yes, I understand that higher SSD speeds will allow to stream more data faster, but that data needs to be processed in the first place. You can have all the storage speed and memory bandwith in the world, but if the CPU and GPU cannot keep up, you're just going to end up with a waste of bandwith.

I think that's because no one really thought about the limitations that slow drives give.  I'm not even sure I thought about before last year.  Even though I had read about all the limitations that Naughty Dog had to deal with during the PS3 era.  They talked a lot about tricks they had to do to eliminate load times, and other stuff like that. During the PS2 era, Jak 2 actually had these rooms where you would go in, and the game would lock you in there until the other part of the world loaded.  I knew about these kinds of limitations, and I know about how much data gets constantly streamed for any current console game.  But I still don't know if I ever really put any thought into what would be different if these limitations just didn't exist.

And the old Jaguar CPUs were a major bottleneck.  It just isn't the only one.  It doesn't get talked about a lot, but the new CPUs are a massive jump over the current ones.  

I'm really excited about the new CPUs, the new audio chips, the I/O systems.  All things considered, computationally we're practically looking at a 15-20x jump.  Although like half of that is going towards the SSD usage, it's still some amount of computation off the CPU.  As I assume load commands are now handled by that SSD structure instead of the main CPU.  Which might be wrong.  

It's still something like a 8-10x jump all things considered.  

I think last gen had a better GPU, RAM jump.  But this gen is having a better CPU, storage jump.  

Overall exciting stuff all around.



chakkra said:
Captain_Yuri said:

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

What I'm finding most fascinating about all of this is that, before the new consoles specs were revealed, just about everybody was putting the blame on the old Jaguar CPUs for the 8th gen's bottleneck, and for the life of me I don't remember anyone even mentioning storage as the culprit. Now all of a sudden the SSD is the only thing that matters.

And yes, I understand that higher SSD speeds will allow to stream more data faster, but that data needs to be processed in the first place. You can have all the storage speed and memory bandwith in the world, but if the CPU and GPU cannot keep up, you're just going to end up with a waste of bandwith.

I am not sure who said the SSD is the only thing that matters (if they are in here, they are very much a minority). This also leaves out the I/O (which will be hjust as important and people have pointed that out).

In any case, yes, those Jaguar CPUs were bottlenecks to better performance. That's a fact. So people had good reason to point blame at them when mentioning what needed a big upgrade (which happens to also be part of the next gen package). Worried about next gen bandwidth/bottlenecks (at least in regards to the PS5)? Listen to Mark Cerny.

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 05 June 2020

                                                                                                             

https://youtu.be/4ehDRCE1Z38

Linus commits seppuku for his misinformed comments pertaining to Tim Sweeney and the PS5 SSD. Classy move and a good summary of the drive's advantages.



CGI-Quality said:
chakkra said:

What I'm finding most fascinating about all of this is that, before the new consoles specs were revealed, just about everybody was putting the blame on the old Jaguar CPUs for the 8th gen's bottleneck, and for the life of me I don't remember anyone even mentioning storage as the culprit. Now all of a sudden the SSD is the only thing that matters.

And yes, I understand that higher SSD speeds will allow to stream more data faster, but that data needs to be processed in the first place. You can have all the storage speed and memory bandwith in the world, but if the CPU and GPU cannot keep up, you're just going to end up with a waste of bandwith.

I am not sure who said the SSD is the only thing that matters (if they are in here, they are very much a minority). This also leaves out the I/O (which will be hjust as important and people have pointed that out).

In any case, yes, those Jaguar CPUs were bottlenecks to better performance. That's a fact. So people had good reason to point blame at them when mentioning what needed a big upgrade (which happens to also be part of the next gen package). Worried about next gen bandwidth/bottlenecks (at least in regards to the PS5)? Listen to Mark Cerny.

Well, I don't think you need to literally see the words "SSD is the only thing that matters" to notice that that is the only thing people talk about these days (and the way they talk about it).

And yes, I watched (and read) Sony's presentation, and I watched (and read) MS's presentation.

You want to hear my opinion on the matter?
Well, Series X designers got to the conclusion that a SSD running at 2.4GB have the enough streaming speed needed for the amount of data that a GPU with 52CUs x1.8GHz and a 8x Zen 2 Cores at 3.8GHz are going to be able to process/generate.

PS5 designers, on the other hand, concluded that a SSD at 5.5GB is needed for the amount of data that a GPU with 36 CUs x2.2GHz and a 8x Zen 2 Cores at 3.5GHz are going to be able to process/generate.

One of them is going to end up being wrong. If MS is wrong then their SSD solution might end up being a bottleneck, but if Sony is wrong then the PS5 will end up with just a bunch of bandwith unused/wasted.