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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - [Soft-locked DO NOT POST] Is MS focusing too much on quantity over quality with their 1st party games?

goopy20 said:

Days Gone was one of the few AAA Sony exclusives that didn't get critical acclaim, but you can't argue the quality of Sony's exclusives this gen. What I'm trying to say is that both companies have roughly the same number of studios but their focus is completely different. Just look at this year. It's basically TLOU2, Ghost of Tsushima, Dreams, FF7, Nioh 2, Death Stranding etc. vs a bunch of filler titles for GP and Halo. Some of those AA games will probably turn out great and get good reviews. But how many people, who bought a Xbox to play Halo or Gears, would honestly get super excited and buy a game like Ori? Sure, it's a quality game, but it barely sold 1.5m copies. 

Now, if people can play Ori for free through GP, I'm sure many will give it a go, just like I did. My point, however, is that MS doesn't seem to be focusing on games that core gamers would pay full price for and instead are going for quantity to fill up GP. I mean Gears Tactics looks pretty cool, but would you buy it for full retail price?

MS is releasing more than "Game pass filler." The majority are high quality titles that have been in development for years. It started out this generation with MS not releasing enough games, but now that games are coming, they are "Filler." Should we ignore games like Dreams and Death stranding because they don't appeal to the vast majority? TLOU2 might be delayed to next year which is easily Sony's biggest title this generation.

The best part about Gamepass is how gamers are trying games they wouldn't have ever before. It lets MS release great games regardless of genre. I would rather see that than MS only focusing on games they know will push sales. That was MS biggest issue this generation and the end of last gen imo. Btw, MS core games isn't the same as Sony's. Age of Empires, Minecraft, Flight Sim, Halo, Gears, Forza all show a wide diversity of games, and all are big sellers. Gears Tactics and Minecraft Dungeons could become extremely popular especially on the PC side of things. 



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LudicrousSpeed said:

Bleeding Edge just came out and we know more content is coming. Crackdown 3 got multiple updates and is not a "MP focused" game. Having multiplayer doesn't make a game "multiplayer focused". State of Decay is even less multiplayer focused and it has gotten tons of post launch support.

You just listed a ton of first party Xbox content and only three to four were multiplayer focused games. Some of the other titles have strong MP elements but also have strong SP. And a vast majority of the ones with strong MP elements got good reviews, and got great support post launch. So I have no idea what you're talking about here. I mean, you claim they release too many MP focused titles, most are bad quality, and a lot are forgotten with no support and "left to die a week or two after release", so let's go down your own list.

So going by your own list there doesn't seem to be any over-emphasis on multiplayer titles and the titles with strong MP focus mostly got real good reviews and support.

I think you seem to misinterpret what is usually considered a "multiplayer focused" game when this stuff is brought up. I guess that usually people here use this term to describe the games that are not "the games that can't be played solo" which seems like your definition of the term but to describe games that have multiplayer component have an impact on overall game design. And unfortunately more often in a negative way. Like, you say that Halo 5 and Gears are not multiplayer focused games because they have SP and MP but they are. The worst thing about Halo 5 was the forced co op thing which is the result of multiplayer component of the game having an impact on game design. This game was designed around co op mechanic so it didn't scale well to play solo. Because just filling stupid AI bots instead of real people is not doing the stuff right in this case. 343 need to learn from Gearbox as Borderlands series handle this stuff a lot better and all Borderlands games play really well in both solo and co op modes. I've just provided Halo 5 as an example, so you can think about the rest of the list for yourself.

eva01beserk said:

If you wana twisted in that way, sure have at it.

But no, I dont think every xbox gamer has gamepass and also don't think they dont buy games. They don't buy first party games as they are included.

Wish in itself not bad as consoles work in that manner as getting you into the ecosystem and from there you buy softwate and they profit. So for that reason consoles are sold at cost or a small lost. To get people in also they have first party games which are meant to push gamers to buy the console as theese games tend to be better as they have to not only sell copys but also sell consoles. But that's the issue companys are suposed to profit from these games. If they take a loss on hardware and a loss on software its harder to  up for it in third party software or subs. I mean it could work its just they will be starting with a handicap. Miss profits that could have gone to investing in more games or hardware improvements or acquisitions or subsidizes or what ever else. 

I still buy them if there are any that interest me. Unfortunately there hasn't been that much recently but I bought Ori 2 at launch and regret it. Though, it seems that I'm in minority here so I get your point. But I think that we still don't have enough data to clearly say whether the fact of majority Xbox gamers not buying first party games has some impact on game design or not. Probably, still too early to tell.



 

Leynos said:
sales2099 said:

It’s almost flattering when people think every Xbox gamer has GP and even if we are subscribers that we don’t buy anymore games outright. 

The 1 AAA game per year sounds about right for the Xbox One, but next gen looks much brighter. This year will have Halo Infinite and Forza 8, with all the A-AA throughout the year :)

I realize this may come across as an atheist speaking in a cathedral. Halo and Gears don't have the pull they did in the 360 era.  Halo series sales have been slipping. MS would not even report on Gears 5 sales and aside from being a bigger open area it still plays like a cover shooter. Something that feels dated now.  Those series only seem to mainly appeal to existing fans now and not bringing in new fans. One of the reasons more Forza, Gears, Halo became a meme this gen. They will convince Xbox fans to buy Series X but I don't see Halo convincing others get an Xbox over PS5. That's not Hellblade either as the first only sold 1 million across several platforms combined. I just see a list of games that convince Xbox fans to buy an Xbox and will have some stuff to tide them over. SO far I don't see anything that says buy Xbox, not PS5.

I'm looking at the lineup of games for this year, and I hardly see MS relying on the same formula as before. The new studios haven't even shown the majority of the games they are working on for next gen, or if they have, it's only a tidbit like Hellblade 2 and Everwild. Halo Infinite will push consoles, don't worry about that. Maybe YOU don't see anything to push you to buy an Xbox, but I've already seen the number of excitement for the next Xbox much higher than last generation. 



smroadkill15 said:
Leynos said:

I realize this may come across as an atheist speaking in a cathedral. Halo and Gears don't have the pull they did in the 360 era.  Halo series sales have been slipping. MS would not even report on Gears 5 sales and aside from being a bigger open area it still plays like a cover shooter. Something that feels dated now.  Those series only seem to mainly appeal to existing fans now and not bringing in new fans. One of the reasons more Forza, Gears, Halo became a meme this gen. They will convince Xbox fans to buy Series X but I don't see Halo convincing others get an Xbox over PS5. That's not Hellblade either as the first only sold 1 million across several platforms combined. I just see a list of games that convince Xbox fans to buy an Xbox and will have some stuff to tide them over. SO far I don't see anything that says buy Xbox, not PS5.

I'm looking at the lineup of games for this year, and I hardly see MS relying on the same formula as before. The new studios haven't even shown the majority of the games they are working on for next gen, or if they have, it's only a tidbit like Hellblade 2 and Everwild. Halo Infinite will push consoles, don't worry about that. Maybe YOU don't see anything to push you to buy an Xbox, but I've already seen the number of excitement for the next Xbox much higher than last generation. 

Think of it like fifa or madden or 2k or racism Sims or what ever else. Theese games dont entice gamers who are nit interested in thouse types of games. The same players will buy it year after year but it's gona be near impossible for them to convice someone who is not into thouse types of games to buy into them no matter the improbements, innovation or what ever. Halo which is a long standing franchise fits into that category. They can get better and fans will love it but thouse who are not fans will keep ignoring it. Its not just MS just in case, applys to zelda, mario, uncharted, civilization, assasins creed and what ever game is just a iteration of the last. Games could be like god of war that that broke its own mold but that's rare and I don't think MS will go that way as they have very few big name ip's and they wont risk loosing the fans.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

I haven't seen MS spam new releases of games since acquiring the new studios. In fact, their output has been rather dry still since the purchases. Of course, that is to be expected since most of these studios were already developing games that were announced under other publishers and are multiplatform such as The Outer Worlds from Obsidian, Psychonauts 2 from Double Fine, and Wasteland 3 from Inxile. So it's going to be a while before we start seeing "quality" games from these studios. 343 hasn't released a new Halo game since 2015 so going on 5 years. We probably won't see a new mainline Gears game for a couple of years.



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goopy20 said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

That's going by what this site constantly goes by, not my personal standards. I'm actually decently excited for FF7R, but I don't think my arguments are any more disingenuous than most arguments about Microsoft's output (of course, they have been way worse than Sony consistently, but I'm saying that in the recent term both companies haven't done the best, and that in both cases the future prospects have yet to be seen). Of course, Metacritic was never and has never been an actual symbol of quality, but let's be consistent now. And the counter-argument would be, Ori and all the recent Forza Horizons are just as quality, if not moreso, then those titles, again going by Metacritic. 

However, considering the OP is basically talking about the difference between AAA vs AA/A games, I guess it doesn't even matter. I think it's a little silly to act like Microsoft's first party releases for this year set a precedent for what the future is going to be when, again, most of their studio acquistions have yet to release games yet, and even when they do smaller games are developed faster than bigger games, so it's more coincidence that the smaller titles will release first. Again though, it's totally fair to say MS has way more to prove, than Sony, but I don't think the OP is giving a very good example. Days Gone is literally, 3 measly points, about Bleeding Edge.  

Days Gone was one of the few AAA Sony exclusives that didn't get critical acclaim, but you can't argue the quality of Sony's exclusives this gen. What I'm trying to say is that both companies have roughly the same number of studios but their focus is completely different. Just look at this year. It's basically TLOU2, Ghost of Tsushima, Dreams, FF7, Nioh 2, Death Stranding etc. vs a bunch of filler titles for GP and Halo. Some of those AA games will probably turn out great and get good reviews. But how many people, who bought a Xbox to play Halo or Gears, would honestly get super excited and buy a game like Ori? Sure, it's a quality game, but it barely sold 1.5m copies. 

Now, if people can play Ori for free through GP, I'm sure many will give it a go, just like I did. My point, however, is that MS doesn't seem to be focusing on games that core gamers would pay full price for and instead are going for quantity to fill up GP. I mean Gears Tactics looks pretty cool, but would you buy it for full retail price?

And there it is. You remind me of myself 10 years ago except on the other side. Numerous people in this thread pointed out how premature your post is and that Xbox studios has a healthy mix of A-AAA games in development.

“Xbox just has a bunch of filler that aren’t system sellers where as Sony only produces big budget AAA games”.

Bravo, you made a thread to prove Sony still top dog in games. But the way I see it...you made this thread because part of you is threatened MS has their shit together. Having the same studios as Sony is somehow registered as a insult to Sony’s superiority so you have to drive home that Xbox makes “filler” as you said yourself. 

Fact is Xbox is making more games, more genre diversity and is also ramping up AAA production. Xbox wants to move beyond Halo Gears and Forza, get with the times. And you are listing 3rd party games....thought this was a 1st party discussion? Lol subtle. 

And don’t list Dreams when we all know it’s not selling... at all.

Last edited by sales2099 - on 07 April 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Leynos said:
sales2099 said:

It’s almost flattering when people think every Xbox gamer has GP and even if we are subscribers that we don’t buy anymore games outright. 

The 1 AAA game per year sounds about right for the Xbox One, but next gen looks much brighter. This year will have Halo Infinite and Forza 8, with all the A-AA throughout the year :)

I realize this may come across as an atheist speaking in a cathedral. Halo and Gears don't have the pull they did in the 360 era.  Halo series sales have been slipping. MS would not even report on Gears 5 sales and aside from being a bigger open area it still plays like a cover shooter. Something that feels dated now.  Those series only seem to mainly appeal to existing fans now and not bringing in new fans. One of the reasons more Forza, Gears, Halo became a meme this gen. They will convince Xbox fans to buy Series X but I don't see Halo convincing others get an Xbox over PS5. That's not Hellblade either as the first only sold 1 million across several platforms combined. I just see a list of games that convince Xbox fans to buy an Xbox and will have some stuff to tide them over. SO far I don't see anything that says buy Xbox, not PS5.. 

Dont know what to tell ya, MS studios have by far more genre diversity in the pipeline then Sony, which primarily makes 3rd party action adventure story driven games.

I imagine Xbox wants to bring in gamers who didn’t consider Xbox in the past. That’s what Ori 2 is for. Flight simulator, Gears Tactics, Hellblade 2, WRPGs from Obsidian and Playground. Not just Halo Gears (shooter) and Forza anymore. I welcome the demographic expanding and having a cumulative effect. 

And I personally believe market share and 1st party sales go hand in hand. Case in point most PS4 exclusives sell very well but most PS3 exclusives sold horribly....like laughably bad compared to 360 ones. ODST outsold Uncharted 2...Killzone 2 lifetime sold as much as Halo 3 opening month. You get my point. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

eva01beserk said:
smroadkill15 said:

I'm looking at the lineup of games for this year, and I hardly see MS relying on the same formula as before. The new studios haven't even shown the majority of the games they are working on for next gen, or if they have, it's only a tidbit like Hellblade 2 and Everwild. Halo Infinite will push consoles, don't worry about that. Maybe YOU don't see anything to push you to buy an Xbox, but I've already seen the number of excitement for the next Xbox much higher than last generation. 

Think of it like fifa or madden or 2k or racism Sims or what ever else. Theese games dont entice gamers who are nit interested in thouse types of games. The same players will buy it year after year but it's gona be near impossible for them to convice someone who is not into thouse types of games to buy into them no matter the improbements, innovation or what ever. Halo which is a long standing franchise fits into that category. They can get better and fans will love it but thouse who are not fans will keep ignoring it. Its not just MS just in case, applys to zelda, mario, uncharted, civilization, assasins creed and what ever game is just a iteration of the last. Games could be like god of war that that broke its own mold but that's rare and I don't think MS will go that way as they have very few big name ip's and they wont risk loosing the fans.

Think you missing the point. MS seeking out fresh gamers. And with their superior genre diversity, charming titles like Ori for example, which would traditionally belong on something like Switch.

Plus, a low barrier to entry, they will do just that. The madden and FIFA Xbox fans like myself will still get their fix. 

Last edited by sales2099 - on 07 April 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

JRPGfan said:
goopy20 said:

I totally get MS's reasoning behind GP, at least from a business sense, but do you guys think MS studios should all be doing multiple smaller projects to keep GP content fresh, or would you like to see them focus more on larger scale AAA titles?

Obviously we don't know exactly what they're all working on but take Ninja Theory for example. They're making Hellblade 2 but they also just released Bleeding Edge and are doing Project Mara as well. Obsidian's new game Grounded also looks like a small scale project and the Initiative apparently also has multiple "small" projects they're working on. It just feels like there's a very strong indie vibe to all the games we're seeing from MS's 1st party studios, even though I'm sure a lot of them will turn out to be great. Hell, Gears tactics looks more interesting than Gears 4 or 5 and I loved Ori. However, those are not typically the kind of games I would buy a next gen console for.

The good:
Ori and the blind forest - 88
Ori and the will of the wisps - 90
Gears 4 - 84
Gears 5 - 84
Halo: The Master Chief Collection - 85
Halo 5: Guardians - 84
Forza Horizon 3 - 91 (+ Hot Wheels - 87)
Forza Horizon 4 - 92
Forza Motorsport 6 - 87
Forza Motorsport 7 - 86
Quatum Break - 77
Killer Instinct - 73
Sunset Overdrive - 81

The bad (and or ugly):
Bleeding edge - 68  (has 13 viewers on twitch right now. Intrest seems really low)
Crackdown 3 - 60 (has 1 viewer on twitch.tv)
Recore - 63
State of decay 2 - 66
Sea of theives - 69
Super Lucky's Tale - 64
Zoo Tycoon: ultimate Animal collection - 70
Rush: A disney/pixar adventure - 68
Disneyland Adventures - 67
Phantom Dust - 73
Voodoo Vince: Remastered - 69
Halo Wars 2 - 79
Dead Riseing 4 - 72
Project Spark - 73

Microsoft does just as many good, as they do these smaller terrible games.
If its Forza/Gears/Halo, its likely a good game. Those guys that make "Ori" seem to make enjoyable platformers too.

Alot of these multiplayer focused games that review poorly, are just left to die a week or two after release.
State of decay 2, seems to have "stuck" around better (than crackdown 3 or Bleeding edge).

I think its a bad strategy to focus so much on these multiplayer focused games, theres too many of them, most are poor quality.
Big AAA games from multiplats, do things so much better that these games are basically just fighting a loseing battle from the start.
Its almost unavoidable, that they just end up left for dead.

How is Killer Instinct with a 73 in the good vut Halo Wars 2, Phantom Dust, Dead Rising 4, and project spark in the bad/luck when 5hey scored higher or about the same?



derpysquirtle64 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Bleeding Edge just came out and we know more content is coming. Crackdown 3 got multiple updates and is not a "MP focused" game. Having multiplayer doesn't make a game "multiplayer focused". State of Decay is even less multiplayer focused and it has gotten tons of post launch support.

You just listed a ton of first party Xbox content and only three to four were multiplayer focused games. Some of the other titles have strong MP elements but also have strong SP. And a vast majority of the ones with strong MP elements got good reviews, and got great support post launch. So I have no idea what you're talking about here. I mean, you claim they release too many MP focused titles, most are bad quality, and a lot are forgotten with no support and "left to die a week or two after release", so let's go down your own list.

So going by your own list there doesn't seem to be any over-emphasis on multiplayer titles and the titles with strong MP focus mostly got real good reviews and support.

I think you seem to misinterpret what is usually considered a "multiplayer focused" game when this stuff is brought up. I guess that usually people here use this term to describe the games that are not "the games that can't be played solo" which seems like your definition of the term but to describe games that have multiplayer component have an impact on overall game design. And unfortunately more often in a negative way. Like, you say that Halo 5 and Gears are not multiplayer focused games because they have SP and MP but they are. The worst thing about Halo 5 was the forced co op thing which is the result of multiplayer component of the game having an impact on game design. This game was designed around co op mechanic so it didn't scale well to play solo. Because just filling stupid AI bots instead of real people is not doing the stuff right in this case. 343 need to learn from Gearbox as Borderlands series handle this stuff a lot better and all Borderlands games play really well in both solo and co op modes. I've just provided Halo 5 as an example, so you can think about the rest of the list for yourself.

I never had any issues with the AI in Guardians. And thanks for another good example, Borderlands. Can be experienced fully and enjoyably solo. Same with almost every game on that list he provided.

There no mistake in how MP focused is being defined here, he’s just incorrect.